Long-Term Injury Fun?

I used to use some pretty nasty critical hits tables (from Dragon "Good Hits, Bad Misses", with a chance for Role Master charts on top). It was fun for that group's play style at that time. I considered throwing something similar into 3e, but the increased chance of critting discouraged me from doing so. Instead, maiming ended up being GM fiat for "you should have died here", like when the wizard triggered the disintegrate trap and only lost an arm (later regenerated, but at a significant cost). Again, that worked great for my current group.

I don't think grievous injury should be a standard rule in D&D. If I were to create some sort of standardized sidebar rule, though, I think I'd base it on the new death and dying saves.

Version 1
There are three saves, under the current system. Each could have the stakes raised.

Failing the first save gives a short-term "grievous wound". This would be a -1" to movement or a single -2 stat penalty. Either of these would last, say one week. That's long enough to impact the game, but not too long.

Failing the second save gives a longer-term wound. The same penalties as above, but lasting somewhere from a month to a season. Alternatively, it could be twice the basic penalty, but shorter in duration.

Failing the third save (yes, this does make dying harder -- I don't think having some compensation is a bad thing for the risk) gives a permanent wound of the -1"/-2 stat variety. Again, an alternate approach would be a -2"/-4 stat penalty that lasts for a month. At this point, dismemberment could be substituted for the numeric penalty.

The fourth save is for death.

Version 2
This doesn't differ much from the above. The main difference is a recovery save.

For a level 1 grievous wound (1 failed save), the penalty is still -1" or -2 stat. Instead of having a set duration, though, the character is allowed a save every week. Failure indicates no change. Success indicates the character recovers.

A level 2 grievous wound (2 failed saves) carries a penalty of -2" or -4 stat. The recovery save is allowed monthly, with a success resulting in a reduction to a level 1 wound, with all relevant rules (including the weekly recovery save).

A level 3 grievous wound (2 failed saves) is really a level 1 wound that's permanent (no save to recover and your friends call your "Lefty" or "Hopalong") and a level 2 wound (with normal recovery chances).

Version 3
And, now for something completely different. This one doesn't tie to the death and dying rules. Instead, it's based on the Fortitude Defense and requires three additional values (similar to bloodied) to be recorded on your sheet. These are your "Wound Thresholds" and are equal to 1x, 2x, and 3x your Fort.

If you take damage from a single attack or instance of a power* that is equal to a Threshold, you take a grievous wound (as described above) according to the highest Threshold broken. Thus, if someone with a Fort of 18 takes 39 damage (breaking the Wound 2 Threshold of 36) from a lightning bolt, he will take a level 2 wound and have a -2" or -4 stat penalty. If he were to take 58 damage (Wound 3 Threshold = 54) from a dragon bite, I hope he isn't wielding a greatsword or planning to take up dance.

Of course, these Thresholds tend to set the bar for dismemberment high enough that lower level Heroic characters are unlikely to survive such damage. I think this is a good thing for several reasons. Newer characters have less attachment to them and a permanent injury could make it easier to just ditch the character and start a new one. Paragon and Epic level characters are likely to have access to regenerative magic, so a permanent injury is more of a speed bump, though a potentially flavorful one, to them. Also, a -2 stat penalty for a week at 2nd level is likely to be roughly as debilitating as a -6 stat penalty until the next town at 12th level, so it scales well. Plus, more skilled, lucky, or hardy (i.e. higher level) people being able to survive -- and even keep fighting after receiving -- grievous wounds just plain makes more sense.

* Continuing damage may or may not stack with itself, depend on whether your game would find it appropriate for someone to watch their leg be dissolved in acid over four rounds.
 

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^^^^^^^^^^^
on that note

Dm: Kaldrid, gets hit by a meteor and takes 35 damage, also, make a fortitude save, you fail so now you have a concussion, you temporarily lose 4 int, and 4 wis for 6 hours, also you are confused for 10d6 minutes.

Dm: Kaldrid, the crazed human crits on you with a scythe (3.5e rules) with a called shot to your right arm and now you have no right arm. good luck.

Dm: Kaldrid is the only one who failed his climb check and fell 40 feet taking 4d6 damage, now make a tumble check not to break a bone... failed? ok then roll percentage... congrats you get a compound fracture in your hip, you are immobile until someone makes a dc 13 heal check to splint you up somehow and you can only move 1 square per round for at least 2d4 weeks. Also someone has to carry him up the cliff if hes going to live because hes bleeding internally.

Dm: the wizard casts a quickened rock to mud on the ground underneath you guys, then casts mud to rock to capture you guys in the earth. make reflex saves, Kaldrid fails and is stuck in the rock. Wizard commands his dire wolf familiar to make a bull rush attempt. he succeeds and now both of kaldirds ankles are broken. Plus he's still stuck in the ground.

and one more just for fun

Dm; kaldrid is hit by a lightning bolt, make a fortitude save to avoid the possibility of heart attack.... failed, ok, roll % die.... kaldrid's heart stopped and he is dead.

These are honestly the most realistic ways I can see long-term/serious injuries affect PCs in 3.5. It sounds awful.

Realistic injuries seem unfun in a game where you fight things with swords and giant hammers everyday.
 

KarinsDad said:
One thing I think this does to benefit the game is to make the game challenging. From what we know so far, every PC recovers from every combat unless there is a TPK, or unless none of the conscious PCs have the Heal skill, or unless a PC is at very low hit points and gets hit for a devastating powerful attack.

Interesting system, but I think you'd have to make critical hits rarer than they are in 4e.

Keep in mind that since the number of opponents has increased, the number of attacks each character is subject to has also increased. In Fourth Edition, with 4 times as many attackers, a character faces as many attacks as he did over the course of 4 battles in 3e. Iterative attacks kinda mess with this, but the general idea is the same.

In other words, I think your system would work fine if you were to add back in the rule to confirm crits.


KarinsDad said:
But typically, 4E appears to be a "fight, heal up, wash and repeat" type of system with little real threat of death.

It seems you're having trouble with one of the basic design tenets of 4e. Which is this:

"The 'threat of death' created by attrition-based adventures does not lead to a fun gaming experience for most people. Ergo, 4e will move away from 'attrition-based adventuring' in favor of making each and every encounter more exciting, dramatic, interesting, and life-threatening."

And yes, each encounter IS life-threatening. But no encounter's threat level is dependent on what went before it. The daily rules are primarily a nod to the reality of the gameworld, and to allow players to engage in a little bit of long-term resource management.

However, if you regard attrition-based adventuring as "the heart and soul of D&D," then it would be (mostly) correct to say you've been "fired" as a customer by the 4e designers.
 
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Flipguarder said:
Realistic injuries seem unfun in a game where you fight things with swords and giant hammers everyday.
I tend to agree. That doesn't prevent the gear-head in me from trying to come up with functional rules for for it, though.

I kinda like my first and second option, though. Mainly because they offer an exchange in place of dying. If I used grievous wounds, it'd probably be like option 2, except with the first save being risk free and dropping the level 3 wound entirely.
 

TPK said:
I'll second that. Why focus on the sucky part of being hurt, when you could focus on the awesome?

Simple variant: If you are reduced to negative hit points, you gain the right to wear a bloody rag around your head like a badass bandanna for the next week. Instead of grumbling about annoying penalties, you'll be getting free beers at the inn.

See? Focus on the positive.

Exactly! I think we should use Skill Challenges to speed recovery:

Athletics check: (Easy) Succeed -- get out of bed, convalesce one day less or Fail -- fall and twist your ankle, convalesce one week more. (Medium) Succeed -- make own breakfast, gain one extra healing surge or Fail -- burn breakfast, heal normally. (Hard) Succeed -- do tricep dips with gnomes tied you your ankles or Fail -- tear your ACL, convalesce two extra days.
 

Here's something:

Design goals:
  • Increase meaningful gamist choices. Reward/risk.
  • Keep it simple to keep track of.
  • Long-Term Injuries lead to more adventure, not less.

Draw a little box on your character sheet. Write the words "Long-Term Injury" beside it. Draw a little skull beside it if you're into that sort of thing.

At any time, if you think you've got the guts, draw a circle around the box. This means you're risking a long-term injury. Gain an action point.

If you're dropped to 0 hit points or less, and the circle is around the box, check that box. It can't be checked twice. Describe the injury.

When you check the box, you are considered Dazed, Enervated, or Slowed. The condition lasts until you uncheck the box.

The type of injury you suffer depends on how you describe it. Head wounds daze, arm wounds enervate, and leg wounds slow. The DM selects the injury based on your description. If you don't describe your injury, the DM will describe it for you. Not a good thing.

Getting rid of the circle:

  • If the box is unchecked, you can erase the circle by taking a major rest (6 hours).
  • If the box is checked, when you erase the check, also erase the circle.

Getting rid of that little check:

You have to take it easy for a while. This means nothing but stress awaits your character. The DM will give your character a quest. Completing this quest means you get to remove the check.

To the DM: This quest should be a skill challenge.


This needs work, but that's what I'm thinking.
 
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I notice the drift of the argument has moved from 'Long term injuries are not fun.' to 'Realistic injuries are not fun.' One is not equivalent to the other. You can have long term injuries that are not realistic, and realistic injuries that aren't always long term.

We don't necessarily have to be going for 'versimilitude=realism' when designing long term rules. All we have to have for 'long term injury' is some resource which is depleted for longer than a single rest period, even if that resource is itself not realistic.
 

LostSoul said:
Here's something:

Design goals:
  • Increase meaningful gamist choices. Reward/risk.
  • Keep it simple to keep track of.
  • Long-Term Injuries lead to more adventure, not less.

....

This needs work, but that's what I'm thinking.

I'm really liking some of the ideas for injury 'candy' that people are coming up with to appease that class of gamer that feels its play style is threatened by long term injury. I like your idea and I like the idea that the party gets bonus XP whenever its members enter the encounter carrying long term injuries.
 

Flipguarder said:
These are honestly the most realistic ways I can see long-term/serious injuries affect PCs in 3.5. It sounds awful.

Realistic injuries seem unfun in a game where you fight things with swords and giant hammers everyday.

I played in a group once where the DM consulted a critical hit chart every time someone was critted. It was awful. And it played out pretty much as you described.

But that little vignette and what I'm trying to accomplish are two completely different things. I can't speak for others. Maybe that sounds fun for them. But for me, I'm interested in another kind of experience.

Basically, I'm looking for a light "attrition" system for prolonged dungeoneering. So, if a party goes into a dungeon for a week, there's a "survival" element to play. Nothing that destroys a character or necessarily sends them off into a death spiral.

But something that makes the resource management of Healing Surges a bit more exciting. And makes the dungeon a little more challenging.

For me "grim and gritty" isn't about isn't about "realistic combat" and rolling for concussions every time someone gets clonked on the head. And it's not about appendages falling off of PCs everytime an Orc crits them with an axe. That's definitely unfun (and pretty darn silly).

It's about being (or perceiving) oneself as overcoming the odds and the inner reward that comes from that.

If there's no threat of injury or death and if all I have to do is take a quick nap to reset myself back to full power, that sense is a little diminished. Not gone. But diminished.

And, no, I don't want to play Warhammer. I can forgive 4e for not supporting this out-of-the-box. D&D has never been great about supporting this type of play.

But other posters telling people to go play Warhammer is not helpful, despite the merits of the game. Some people have been house ruling 1e, 2e, and 3e to play this way for decades. It's not unreasonable to want to tweak 4e to achieve a similar experience.

My personal feeling is that it will be easier in 4e than in 3e. And Healing Surges are definitely a big plus in that direction. We've had some interesting suggestions thus far and I can't wait to see what the 4e Design team comes up with for this.

I have no doubt that rules such as these will appear either in Dragon/Dungeon or an upcoming 4e setting -- assuming they don't make it into the DMG.
 

LostSoul said:
This needs work, but that's what I'm thinking.

Thus far, it looks great.

I like that a PC can only have one injury at a time and that acquiring that injury is a choice the Player decides to take. It reminds me of raising the "Death Flag" in E6. Very nice.

I'd like to get a look at the other Persistent Conditions in 4e. I remember reading that it would have some (such as Diseases, some Poisons and whatnot) but I'd like to get a chance to see those operate to compare them against the Dazed/Enervated/Slowed.

I'm not sure I'm feeling the Dazed/Enervated/Slowed. I think that may be too punitive. But I know nothing until we get a look at the PHB/DMG and find out what the designers feel a Persistent Condition should look like.

Other than that, I think your suggestion is one of the best I've seen thus far.
 

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