Longswords for Halflings in SRD?

[Hypersmurf]

But to penalilzed small critters for using small weapons... it doesn't seem necessary.

Fortunately, in 3.5, Small critters aren't penalised for using Small weapons. Diminutive, Tiny, Medium, and Large weapons, absolutely. But not Small ones.

-Hyp.

 

[Storyteller01]

Fortunately, in 3.5, Small critters aren't penalised for using Small weapons. Diminutive, Tiny, Medium, and Large weapons, absolutely. But not Small ones.

-Hyp.

You know what I mean...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Re: my Dagger/Letter opener example:

This goes back to the 'wizard weilding the giants dagger' example (except maybe a fairy was involved??). It's an extreme example designed to break the system. In this case I agree that a penalty (or a flat out banning) is in order. But to penalilzed small critters for using small weapons... it doesn't seem necessary.

It is extreme, but its not "designed to break the system" but rather to illustrate the difference in weapon proportions.

A longsword sized for a small creature would have a different sized hilt (both length and circumference), blade (length, width, depth & shape), mass & balance than a shortsword sized for a medium creature, even if the 2 weapons are the same overall length.

While that shortsword may be no longer than the halfling's longsword, the shortsword's grip will be bigger around than the longsword's- thus would be harder to wield and easier to disarm. It may even be heavier...or at least feel that way, since the balance would be different. In the other direction, the human might find the shortsword's grip too skinny to hold with surety without using a deathgrip on it- a recipe for fatigue and disarmament just as surely as the other way around.

Could a Warrior overcome such difficulties? Sure- but he's still going to be less proficient with an ill-balanced weapon (one inappropriate for his size and build) than he would be with a normal one. Thus, negative mods.

Look at it this way- Joe Satriani is a great guitarist. He currently uses custom-made Ibanez guitars (valued in the many thousands of $$$) as his main axes. Could he pick up a kid's-scale First Act starter guitar (valued at around $100...with amp) and make it sound good? Sure- but not as easily as one of his chromed-out killers back home. Result: -2 to his perform roll...

 

[Klaus]

Take a peek at the sword Harry Potter brandishes at the end of the "HP & the Chamber of Secrets" movie. It is clearly a child-sized sword, with a hilt that a child could easily grasp and all. An adult wouldn't be able to grip that sword effectively. No imagine Harry Potter picking up the sword used by Arnold Schwarzenegger in the Conan movie. Harry's hands would have a hard time fully grasping the hilt, and the sword would be too heavy for him.

All this translates to a -2 penalty to hit.

 

[Storyteller01]

Harry Potter is not 3 ft tall in said movie, nor is Conan's sword a shortsword or blade of equivalent size. If the grip is 4", an adult can wield it as well.

A technique is taught that allows you to 'half wield' a single edge knife. You're index and middle finger actually rest on the back of the blade. You're ring and index fingers hold the grip (obviously, the knife cannot have a hand guard). This technique is used to improve precision at the expense of range.

Quite a bit of proof for my arguement. In exchange I've receive possible weapon constructs without any solid evidence that such construction would be the case. Where is your proof?

Try this: I have a stilletto with three edges along the blade. It is a total of 8" (4" for both handle and blade). It is solid metal, no external parts to effect balance. The handle is 4" x 1/4" x 3/8". It is made to be weilded by a human.

Why would a small creature suffer any penalty for this weapon? Heck, why would a small creature suffer penalties for wielding a shortspear? There is no special balance accutriments; it solid wood. Does a caveman spend hours shaving away pieces to achieve that mythic balance humans apparently need to wield a weapon?

 

[Storyteller01]

Re: my Dagger/Letter opener example:


It is extreme, but its not "designed to break the system" but rather to illustrate the difference in weapon proportions.

A longsword sized for a small creature would have a different sized hilt (both length and circumference), blade (length, width, depth & shape), mass & balance than a shortsword sized for a medium creature, even if the 2 weapons are the same overall length.

While that shortsword may be no longer than the halfling's longsword, the shortsword's grip will be bigger around than the longsword's- thus would be harder to wield and easier to disarm. It may even be heavier...or at least feel that way, since the balance would be different. In the other direction, the human might find the shortsword's grip too skinny to hold with surety without using a deathgrip on it- a recipe for fatigue and disarmament just as surely as the other way around.

Could a Warrior overcome such difficulties? Sure- but he's still going to be less proficient with an ill-balanced weapon (one inappropriate for his size and build) than he would be with a normal one. Thus, negative mods.

Look at it this way- Joe Satriani is a great guitarist. He currently uses custom-made Ibanez guitars (valued in the many thousands of $$$) as his main axes. Could he pick up a kid's-scale First Act starter guitar (valued at around $100...with amp) and make it sound good? Sure- but not as easily as one of his chromed-out killers back home. Result: -2 to his perform roll...

Look up earlier in the thread. There's a pick of a child holding a wakizashi. Children train with weapons designed for adults.

There's a video clip earlier showing the strength of a small creature, as defned by the SRD.

Per the SRD a small longsword and a shortsword are the same weight.

Fencers who learn epee and saber overcome grip differences far more penalizing than minor size differences, as seen in the pictures below.

If we can overcome such design differences, what would an inch here, a pound there, matter?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why would a small creature suffer any penalty for this weapon?

Out of curiosity... let's say we have a halfling who takes a human's longsword, and uses it as a greatsword. Ignoring the question of whether it makes a difference to how easy it is to use... do you believe the longsword would look essentially identical to a greatsword a halfling might design? Or do you agree that perhaps there might be differences in the thickness of hilt, length of grip, etc (which might make essentially no difference to how well the halfling can wield it)?

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Try this: I have a stilletto with three edges along the blade. It is a total of 8" (4" for both handle and blade). It is solid metal, no external parts to effect balance. The handle is 4" x 1/4" x 3/8". It is made to be weilded by a human.

Why would a small creature suffer any penalty for this weapon. Heck, why would a small creature suffer penalties for wielding a shortspear? There is no special balance accutriments, it solid wood. Does a caveman spend hours shaving away pieces to achieve that mythic balance humans apparently need to wield a weapon?

Why? Because its not built for his hand's smaller grip. While a 5'7" adult like myself can easily grip such a weapon- indeed, my hand would completely envelop the grip and possibly overlap some- someone who is about a child's size might just barely be able to grip it. Without a doubt, that person's grip on that weapon would not be as sure as my own.

And if you handed it to someone the size of Andre the Giant (who would still be considered size M, BTW), the whole weapon would fairly dissapear in his hands.

Look up earlier in the thread. There's a pick of a child holding a wakizashi. Children train with weapons designed for adults.

Holding != Wielding. I've never seen a child learning weapons training with a full-sized weapon.

Fencers who learn epee and saber overcome far more than minor size differences, as seen in the pictures below.

Re: Epee & Saber. Those who learn both weapons are learning 2 different weapons that are of appropriate size & balance to them.

If we can overcome such design differences, what would an inch here, a pound there, matter?

An inch here, pound there can be the difference between standing here or lying there.

If you look at the statistics for historical weapons, the differences are smaller than you'd think. A short-sword might weigh as much as 3 pounds, a rapier between 3-4 lbs, a longsword 3.5 to 4.5 pounds, and a 2-hander rarely weighs more than 6.

You get outside those weights, you introduce all kinds of problems. There is an example of a nearly 8lb ceremonial 2 hander in Europe that is completely unwieldy, even by largeish persons who are proficient in the weapon- its blade flexes so much its looks like a comma when the blade is held "level." A smaller 7lb 2 hander (same length, narrower blade-point) in the same museum (intended for use) has a blade with significant flex, but its INCHES less than its ceremonial cousin.

Going the other direction, you simply scale things down and you change some of the mechanical properties of the weapons. Take a look at one of the various Oakeshott sites- there are reasons why a shortsword has a different blade shape from a longsword.

Or, in other words, despite being curved blades, a Wazikashi is not a Katana is not a No-Daichi, and wouldn't perform optimally if used by someone for whom they were not to scale.

 

[Storyteller01]

Out of curiosity... let's say we have a halfling who takes a human's longsword, and uses it as a greatsword. Ignoring the question of whether it makes a difference to how easy it is to use... do you believe the longsword would look essentially identical to a greatsword a halfling might design? Or do you agree that perhaps there might be differences in the thickness of hilt, length of grip, etc (which might make essentially no difference to how well the halfling can wield it)?

-Hyp.

Yes, there would be differences. But then again, there are differences in those swords today. A longsword can have a blade length of 28" to 36" and still be called a longsword. That's a much larger difference than what a small creature faces when using their longsword vs a medium shortsword.


Also, weapons were made by differing smiths with different ideas on what improved balance. The 'special blend' of weight, length, length of grip, etc is different for all blades. Take two european two-handed swords, one from germany and the other from england. Will they both have the exact same dimensions. Will a fighter from either country suffer a -2 penalty because the blade isn't balanced for his nationality?

Children are taught to wield knives made for adults at a young age even today. A twelve year old has learned to use a kitchen knife long before they are that age.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, there would be differences. But then again, there are differences in those swords today.

But on average? The average Medium longsword would have a thicker hilt than the average Small greatsword; the chunkiest Medium longsword would have a thicker hilt than the chunkiest Small greatsword; the slimmest Medium longsword would have a thicker hilt than the slimmest Small greatsword?

-Hyp.