Looking for a simpler PC Gen...

[magnusmalkus]

If someone could show me how to use PC Gen, I'm sure I could use it to it's fullest capacity.

I can see how much effort was put into the program. I don't want to come off as not appreciating effort. It was just too complex for my need. But it is true you do need to consider your whole audience when putting out a product.

Maybe script programers were the target audience.

 

[Glyfair]

I think that's a pretty arrogant and elitist attitude to take. Of course a good design takes into account the needs of its intended users. However, the intended users of a D&D utility program are not necessarily computer experts who are familiar with the ins and outs of the open source community.

You do realize that's actually what he was saying.

"Knowing how to create a product for the intended users, not you."

Means that it would have been good if the intended users could use it easily, and not just the designers.

Honestly, the only 3E/d20 character generator program I've seen that was simple and intuitive was the original software with the PHB. I'm not quite sure why Fluid moved away from the basic design concepts there to the hodgepodge that is ETools (even if it's my generator of choice).

Sure, I can understand that Char Gen programs are going to get complex when you start designing your own feats, classes, etc. It should be simple when you don't want to do that. (Yes, I realize that since you have to design your own modules for non-open content right now, getting into this area is almost mandatory for most users).

 

[kingpaul]

If someone could show me how to use PC Gen, I'm sure I could use it to it's fullest capacity.

Have you read the documentation that comes with the program? The first 2 sub-trees in the docs are "Installation" and "Character Creation Walkthrough".

 

[kingpaul]

For the record, I've played D&D in most of its incarnations for over 20 years and I've been programming professionally for over 6 years in C++, C#, ASP, XSLT, Javascript, etc. And I think PC Gen is unintuitive, clunky, and overly complex.

Would you then like to volunteer to help make PCGen less complex?

 

[kingpaul]

You have to understand that, to a highly educated power-user

What's your definition of power-user? I don't believe PCGen has ever tried to limit the scope of who the target audience is. If you only want the SRD, great, its there for use. If you want to use more datasets, they're there as well. If you want one that's not there...well, you either get to write it yourself or hope some data monkey decides to do it.

 

[kingpaul]

I was intimidated by the download homepage, there as ton of information and no clear direction on which file was the one I needed to download. Based on the download page, I immediately got the impression that this was a serious program and not some 'fluffy bunny' program like I was looking for.

This page? If so, stables and alpha/beta releases are defined on that page.

More complexity was added to my downfall in the language used, it used more javascript jargon than actual d20 jargon.

Not sure what you mean here.

A pop-up 'first time walkthru' for first time users would have helped out. I had no idea how to start out the procress, there was no prompt on how to get started. All I saw was a list of supplements to load and thru trial and error, I discovered I had to 'load sources' or something like that. I didn't recognize any of the supplements. I did recognize the 3.5 SRD so I moved that over to the right side and pressed the load button, and then a Y showed up under the Loaded column but ... then what? I couldnt figure out what to do next. All i could do was move 'sources' from the right to the left and load them. There was no prompting on what to do next. I never saw one stat roll or race/class/feat/skill selection... I rapidly lost interest.

Did you read the documentation that comes with the download? There's info on character creation in there.

If I can't pick something up and have it be intuitive, then it's going to be an exercise in frustration and probably not worth my time. Programs should be built with the user in mind and if that rule was applied to PC Gen, then apparently the program was made with more script-savy (or generally more intelligent) users in mind.

That's why we've spent a lot of time recently beefing up the documentation. Where did the docs fail you so we can continue the improvement?

 

[LrdApoc]

KP,

I think the usability portion of PCGen has often taken back seat to the features but honestly why not consider a basic and advanced mode for users - use something along the way of a Wizard for first run and to hide the mechanical interface of loading sources, offer simple wizards to create a Pc, Autogenerations of an NPC, Leveling a Monster, creating a spellbook for a n level character, etc.
Then you'll have overcome some of the obstacles to use by making it result focused for the basic user.

I've tried to get the gang here in my group hip to using PCGen for awhile but they find the interface a challenge as well. They don't want to play with it or spend too much time learning to navigate it, the flow of generation does not feel natural to them - these are the reasons they have abandoned it a few times and whenever a new version comes out and I download it I notice the one thing that seldom has changed is the UI. Having good documentation a user has to read to get the basics does not work on a first impression basis - no matter how expertly written the documentation might be.

There are various levels of users in the D&D arena - consider targeting them a little more in the interface design: hide the levers and gears and deliver more streamlined interface panels with cognizant explanation for simple users while allowing users to switch to a grognard mode once they get the feel of the interface.

That's my 2 cents. It also helps if, like Fluid, you adapt a more stylish and graphically attractive mode so the program doesn't come off as a calculator or spreadsheet like utility - this is a hard road but since the program is Java and supports skins it might be possible to have modular UI's - but I have not looked at the code and can't comment on it personally.

I would be happy to help with any design focus groups if you decide to go that route.

 

[LightPhoenix]

While I am more than likely in the whole "power-user" category (I for one didn't find PCGen to overly difficult to use, but that was many moons ago), I can completely understand and relate to where people are coming from.

It's not a matter of being unable to read documentation, or even to find it. It's a matter of being inundated with tech-speak from the get go, so users who are not tech-saavy feel overwhelmed, and move on.

If I started a topic about biology/biochemistry (especially using it in a game), there would be a lot of people that likely wouldn't even bother reading it, because it requires learning a lot of material just to read about it. That's leaving out talking about it or using it. I know it's a bit of an apples-to-oranges argument, but I think a similar thing happens with PCGen. The average chargen user, of whatever product, doesn't want to have to learn a new paradigm. They just want to create a character easier than by hand.

PCGen is a very powerful chargen, but from the get-go it's surrounded by parlance that intimidates the average role-player.

To pre-empt you kingpaul, what would I suggest? Well, I'm not a programmer, I'm a biochemist, so I'm in no way qualified to talk about GUI design, or programming.

Those aside, I would have a non-Sourceforge PCGen home page. Links on that page could link to stuff on SF, but Sourceforge itself is not built for users, it's built for designers. On that front page would need to be, at the very least, links to the documentation, to a FAQ, to the latest stable release, and to the latest beta (I would avoid alphas).

No, I'm not a web designer either, before you ask.

With regards to a FAQ, I'm sure on the PCGen forums and here you could have a call for questions, if some of the community members don't already have a good idea what is asked frequently. This is a good place to answer what may seem like simple things - just from this thread: "What is an alpha, and a beta?", "What is a release candidate?", "What do these numbers mean?" These are intuitive to people who have even a little experience with releasing software, but not to people who just download and play. I'd recommend breaking it up into a tree, one branch for each category of background info, installation, usage, customization (including coding data sets).

The other big thing I would do is link to tutorials on aforementioned page. I don't know if these exist or not - I haven't used PCGen since before 3.5. If not, I would recommend that the Code Monkeys not write them. They're too intimately involved with the project, so what seems natural to them may not be for the average user.

I know these probably seem like a burden, when you're overworked and getting over the remnants of the whole Master Tools thing. However, you did say just a few posts up that you're not trying to limit users, and I think that these suggestions (and they're only that) might help with the less computer-saavy users.

 

[Anurien]

Did I plug RPGXplorer already?

 

[mattcolville]

What's your definition of power-user? I don't believe PCGen has ever tried to limit the scope of who the target audience is. If you only want the SRD, great, its there for use. If you want to use more datasets, they're there as well. If you want one that's not there...well, you either get to write it yourself or hope some data monkey decides to do it.

I would say; if the acronym "JRE" is meaningful to you, you are a highly-educated power-user.