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Looking for a simpler PC Gen...

mattcolville

Adventurer
kingpaul said:
Where does it fail as a character generator?

Well, it only fails in that neither I, nor anyone I game with, can stand to use it. I didn't say it failed, I said I found it highly suboptimal.

Most of the guys in my group can manage HeroForge, but even that scares those who aren't used to using Excel.
 

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XCorvis

First Post
It's good to see that the PCGen folks are listening. Thanks for piping up!

karianna said:
I'm not sure if people are going to the 'correct' sourceforge web page that we'd like users to go to. If you visit http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/ then you'll end up on the home page that's designed for the end users, which is different from the home page that the development team use.
Karianna, that home page is still pretty confusing. There are 26 links on the first page and most of them are cryptic to a novice user. It's still a developer's page, not at all for end users. You should consider a radically stripped down version:
"What is PCGen?" (with screenshots)
Download PCGen (only the latest stable version, no others, doesn't link the SF download page, it's direct to the mirrors page)
Documentation and Tutorial (prominently displayed)
Get Help (Yahoo group)
Developers Section (Bug reports, the wiki, anything that goes to SF. It MUST be off the main page, or on another site completely.)

Less is more in this case, because more is intimidating and confusing.
 

mattcolville

Adventurer
Designing software is something people specialize in for a reason. A: Programmers have radically different values than end users. B: End users often don't know what they want, or want contradictory things.

Therefore it takes a specialist to step in and mediate.

We design our own software here at work. We have specialists who do nothing except make sure the tools are designed to specification, and useful and functional.

To this end, they write specs based on the end user's needs. But often they must step in when the end user wants things, and don't know the repercussions of their request. A good designer doesn't simply do everything the programmer's way, or do everything the end user's way. He exercises his judgment based on his experience and training in design and UIs.

One of our world-building tools here at work, designed in olden days by programmers who had no accountability with the end users, would simply quit, instantly, if you pressed the Escape key. Now, if you're familiar with the standard Window's Interface, "Escape" has a specific use. If you're typing in a text field, for instance, and you hit Escape, it will clear the text field.

Well, this program had text fields and if you hit Escape while you were in it, the program would instantly, suddenly, quit and you'd lose all your work without warning.

When we went to the programmers and complained, they all said the same thing; "Don't press Escape."

This is what we call a "programmer solution." Meaning "only a programmer would say that." It's not only absurdly literal, it ignores the way people actually use software.

Now we have a tools team, with tools programmers, and the experience is night and day. They listen to what we want, go away, present something that's very close to what we need and, as we use it, they optimize it...but they also tell us "No," sometimes, because sometimes we want things that directly contradict other things we've asked for.

Even this is not something we could release to the public. Here, the end user is a designer who's highly educated on all the issues.

Making software, like a D&D character editor, that's accessible and useful to the average D&D player means making it very, very simple, and intuitive and unless you're an experienced tools programmer and have a good UI designer, it's very unlikely your product is going to be awesome, especially when you're working in an open source environment with lots of people working separately under disparate schedules and conditions all modding the stuff.

What they acheived with PCGen is very impressive! But asking people in this thread to help fix it is exacerbating the problem. The people in this and other threads are not experienced tools programmers.
 

DethStryke

Explorer
karianna said:
Hi all,

This thread has kicked up a massive new discussion on our developers list. All of our developers agree that the UI is too complicated :). What we're looking to do now is to complete several of the UI feature requests we've had out there for years (recommendations from UI experts in the past) which will at least make the UI consistent.

In the mean time we'll continue working on separating the core rules engine from the UI so that we can replace the Java/Swing UI with something new and flashy.

Oh, and just so people know, we've run coder profilers all over PCGen and it's not the UI layer that actually has the performance bottlenecks, so we can and will start to tackle these performance issues for our next production release.

I'm not sure if people are going to the 'correct' sourceforge web page that we'd like users to go to. If you visit http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/ then you'll end up on the home page that's designed for the end users, which is different from the home page that the development team use.

Thanks for all of the feedback!

I like the concept of PCGen. I like that it is free and I have paid money for it/sourcebooks/developmentfunds/monkeycookies/whatevertheyusethemoneyfor with the hopes that it would help bandwidth costs and generally contribute to a better product.

However, I have to allocate over 512MB to the fricken program for it to even begin to run in some resemblance of smooth. That's ridiculous and most laptops barely even HAVE 512 total in the first place. Lucky for me, I work in IT and have stupidly powerful equipment to play games on. I don't even THINK about using the GM tools to keep track of the party or run it networked. These things are awesome concepts, but I can crash the thing with ONE character on rock-solid machine simply trying to PRINT. What world is this useful in?

I don't care if it's so cross-platform that people running Amigas can use it, the platform is crap. The things stated above are generally true in my mind as well (the UI being clunky and such). The Java performance is so above and beyond crappy that you could paste my monitor with $20 dollar bills as the UI and I still wouldn't use it anymore.

Maybe with a few $100 though... I could use a few hundred bucks right now... :)
 

DethStryke

Explorer
mattcolville said:
Designing software is something people specialize in for a reason. A: Programmers have radically different values than end users. B: End users often don't know what they want, or want contradictory things.

Therefore it takes a specialist to step in and mediate.

We design our own software here at work. We have specialists who do nothing except make sure the tools are designed to specification, and useful and functional.

To this end, they write specs based on the end user's needs. But often they must step in when the end user wants things, and don't know the repercussions of their request. A good designer doesn't simply do everything the programmer's way, or do everything the end user's way. He exercises his judgment based on his experience and training in design and UIs.

One of our world-building tools here at work, designed in olden days by programmers who had no accountability with the end users, would simply quit, instantly, if you pressed the Escape key. Now, if you're familiar with the standard Window's Interface, "Escape" has a specific use. If you're typing in a text field, for instance, and you hit Escape, it will clear the text field.

Well, this program had text fields and if you hit Escape while you were in it, the program would instantly, suddenly, quit and you'd lose all your work without warning.

When we went to the programmers and complained, they all said the same thing; "Don't press Escape."

This is what we call a "programmer solution." Meaning "only a programmer would say that." It's not only absurdly literal, it ignores the way people actually use software.

Now we have a tools team, with tools programmers, and the experience is night and day. They listen to what we want, go away, present something that's very close to what we need and, as we use it, they optimize it...but they also tell us "No," sometimes, because sometimes we want things that directly contradict other things we've asked for.

Even this is not something we could release to the public. Here, the end user is a designer who's highly educated on all the issues.

Making software, like a D&D character editor, that's accessible and useful to the average D&D player means making it very, very simple, and intuitive and unless you're an experienced tools programmer and have a good UI designer, it's very unlikely your product is going to be awesome, especially when you're working in an open source environment with lots of people working separately under disparate schedules and conditions all modding the stuff.

What they acheived with PCGen is very impressive! But asking people in this thread to help fix it is exacerbating the problem. The people in this and other threads are not experienced tools programmers.

Indeed. I am in the technical field and have done QC work for UI programmers. What you speak is gospel for the most part, but many are not bothered to strike that balance; typically for personal and selfish reasons, but I digress.

I would maintain that the more technically minded *would* be found here. Consider, this is a website (yes, that means little but it does imply ownership of at least one machine) and not the General forum. You have to specifically enter this area titled Software, Computers & D&D Utilities manually, then specifically open this post. It's not like you can trip over a rock and end up here.

And, considering both yourself and I have replied on this thread multiple times, we make up a sizable, albeit minority, group here. With the addition of the people from PCGen Dev Team, I'd almost claim Majority.

The people in this thread ARE experienced end users. While they may not know how to program, they DO know exactly what they want in their PCs/NPCs and how the Saving Throw bonuses stack with three magic items effecting them. That gives them insight into the needed results that the nameless UI programmer who is lurking on the thread can use.

When you are the end user, you ARE a second-hand UI programmer - it is your requests and needs that are being fulfilled based on your specification.
 

DethStryke

Explorer
kingpaul said:
Really? Windows Explorer is set up in a treeing schematic for folder hierarchies. I would have assumed, apparently wrongly, that users familiar with Windows (which is still the predmominant OS) would be familiar with that set-up.

If it were marketed and presented as a "set-up", then your logic would stand. As it is, every new version of windows since 3.1 has introduced wizards made to automate just about every single thing any end user would ever want to do with a PC. Millions of people drive cars every day and don't know what a clutch is or how it works, despite every car having one - it is done for you in automatics (the majority in America).

As mattcolville has pointed out (and I did in a little rant a few posts before this) it fails in that many people can't stand to use it. *IF* it ran less like a C-64 game with the loading times and did not require above average knowledge of software/computer use to make it function, then it would be the best thing ever and this thread wouldn't exist. It would literally be the original post, a link to PCGen and a bunch of people reading it. Maybe another few posts comprised of "Bump!" and a request to have it stickied.

If you have the cure for cancer but you chisel the knowledge on a stone tablet in a dead language, what good is it going to do anyone?
 

Taurendil

First Post
DethStryke said:
I don't care if it's so cross-platform that people running Amigas can use it, the platform is crap. The things stated above are generally true in my mind as well (the UI being clunky and such). The Java performance is so above and beyond crappy that you could paste my monitor with $20 dollar bills as the UI and I still wouldn't use it anymore.

I do care that it's cross-platform since I use windows less and less. That being said, I don't think Java's to blame for the speed issues. Having looked at the source for pcgen, it's main problem seems to be it's domain model with lots of data being needlessly copied and passed around and too many classes inheriting from one class. This means that something like a language object can be assigned follower objects and that makes a language object bloated.

I think another problem might be that it loads to many data at startup, even if it never gets used. It maight benefit from some form of lazy loading, but I guess that it would need a db backend for that.

Java certainly isn't the fastest language out there but refactoring the program could do a lot to alleviate the speed issues. So I wouldn't throw out the cross-platform-ness of pcgen.

I don't have anything to do with pcgen (I just use it in my campaign and had a look at the source), but I'm guessing some of the developers are working towards a beter domain model, some documents on the wiki seem to suggest that much.
 

kingpaul

First Post
Taurendil said:
IHaving looked at the source for pcgen, it's main problem seems to be it's domain model with lots of data being needlessly copied and passed around and too many classes inheriting from one class. This means that something like a language object can be assigned follower objects and that makes a language object bloated.
Our code team has been trying to eliminate the unnecessary copying of objects for a while now.
Taurendil said:
I think another problem might be that it loads to many data at startup, even if it never gets used. It maight benefit from some form of lazy loading, but I guess that it would need a db backend for that.
Are you saying the users are loading to many datasets, or that PCGen is grabbing more datasets then is intended? Its a known issue that loading more datasets slows the program down, and the coders are looking at that as well.
Taurendil said:
but I'm guessing some of the developers are working towards a beter domain model, some documents on the wiki seem to suggest that much.
That they are. Its taking time to so to make sure nothing breaks in the process though.
 

kingpaul

First Post
DethStryke said:
If it were marketed and presented as a "set-up", then your logic would stand.
So, if I had stated the docs were set up in a tree/sub-tree format, that would have been better?
DethStryke said:
Millions of people drive cars every day and don't know what a clutch is or how it works, despite every car having one - it is done for you in automatics (the majority in America).
Heh, I started on a standard, so I know about clutches and popping a clutch to get a car started.
DethStryke said:
If you have the cure for cancer but you chisel the knowledge on a stone tablet in a dead language, what good is it going to do anyone?
So, you want PCGen written in Egyptian hieroglyphics then? :D

But seriously, as I stated earlier, overhauling the GUI is something thats been attempted in the past, but those GUI monkeys disappear on us.
 


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