Looking for examples of mounted characters/combats

[Gnimish88]

I am currently having a debate on fighting while mounted and looking for information on whether or not Handle Animal is intended to be used to make your warmount attack. So far, the only info I have been able to find includes mount based prestige classes from the Complete Warrior and a mounted combat example from Sword and Fist. In the first case, the mount based prestige classes either appear to take the 5 ranks in Handle Animal to get the synergy bonus to ride (Cavelier), or they don't take it at all (Halfling Outrider, Purple Dragon Knight). The example of mounted combat in Sword and Fist never has the riders making Handle Animal checks to have their respective mounts attack, on the other hand, they also skip the DC 5 Ride checks to use both hands while riding as well as the DC 10 to attack when your horse attacks. On the other hand, both have high enough Ride skill to automatically make both of those type of checks, and neither has sufficient Handle Animal to automatically make a DC 10 Handle Animal check.

At this point, the weight of evidence seems to support my belief that Handle Animal is not intended for use with mounts, but I would prefer something a little more solid, one way or the other. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[UltimaGabe]

The Handle Animal skill, as far as I know, is meant for training and raising animals, not for during-game use.

 

[shilsen]

At this point, the weight of evidence seems to support my belief that Handle Animal is not intended for use with mounts, but I would prefer something a little more solid, one way or the other. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

You are correct. For in-combat control of a mount, you need to make the appropriate Ride checks, not Handle Animal. Once your Ride skill is high enough, most of them become irrelevant since you will succeed automatically, which is probably why the Ride checks aren't mentioned in the combat examples you mentioned.

 

[Gnimish88]

The Handle Animal skill, as far as I know, is meant for training and raising animals, not for during-game use.

The SRD clearly shows in game uses for Handle Animal. From SRD with added edits:

Handle an Animal (DC 10): This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

“Push” an Animal (DC 25): To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.


If it were not for these lines, this arguement would not have come up. The contention is that having a warmount attack is covered under Attack trick under Handle Animal. I need something rather more solid if I am going to break through to the people I am arguing with, since common sense can be seen both ways, and weight of evidence is completely insuffient to sway the opposing parties.

Evidence for Handle Animal:
1) The skill clearly states that having an animal perform a trick it knows requires and DC 10 Handle Animal check.

Evidence against Handle Animal:
1) None of the information I am able to find from WoTC books indicates that people who rely on mounted combat at their main trick take more ranks in Handle Animal then necessary to gain the synergy bonus, if they take it at all.
2) The only example of mounted combat I can find in WoTC books makes no use of Handle Animal whatsoever, even though the riders do not have sufficient ranks to make a DC 10 Handle Animal check automatic.

The counter argument against the evidence against is that the writers in this case are (not in so many words) incompetent, which I am hard pressed to argue against, since there are a number cases where one book contradicts another.

 

[Quasqueton]

This thread is on the same subject:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74750&highlight=handle+animal

Quasqueton

 

[FireLance]

I have given my views in the thread above. In short, if you don't command your mount to attack, and only take advantage of the increased mobility from riding, you only need the Ride skill. If you want to command your mount to attack, you need to make a Handle Animal check, but it isn't too difficult (DC 10 check) even if you don't have ranks in Handle Animal.

The only example of a step-by-step mounted combat that I can recall in WotC books is the one in Sword and Fist. Unfortunately, that was written for 3.0e rules, not 3.5e.

Also note that you wouldn't need to make Handle Animal checks if you're riding an intelligent (Int 3+) mount such as a Paladin's special mount since it's not an animal.

 

[dcollins]

At this point, the weight of evidence seems to support my belief that Handle Animal is not intended for use with mounts, but I would prefer something a little more solid, one way or the other. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

I agree with your conclusions. The Ride rules are what get used for mounts, Handle Animal applies for other things.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I have given my views in the thread above. In short, if you don't command your mount to attack, and only take advantage of the increased mobility from riding, you only need the Ride skill. If you want to command your mount to attack, you need to make a Handle Animal check, but it isn't too difficult (DC 10 check) even if you don't have ranks in Handle Animal.

Erm no, you don't. The ride skill specifically has an entry
"fight with warhorse", that is a free-action DC 10 ride check, and causes your warhorse to attack. I believe this applies to any war-trained creature you may wish to ride.

If, however, you were riding some non-war trained creature, then you could use handle animal to 'push' it to know the 'function as a warhorse' trick.

 

[Quasqueton]

Erm no, you don't. The ride skill specifically has an entry
"fight with warhorse", that is a free-action DC 10 ride check, and causes your warhorse to attack. I believe this applies to any war-trained creature you may wish to ride.

Erm, no. The "fight with warhorse" use of the Ride skill does not cause your warhorse to attack:

SRD: "Fight with Warhorse: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action."

This lets you make your own attack normally if you have directed your warhorse to attack this round (with the Handle Animal skill).

I still see it as:

Use warhorse as extra legs = no checks

Make warhorse attack = Handle Animal check

Attack at same time as warhorse = Ride check (after the above Handle Animal check)

Quasqueton

 

[Rozman]

Actually, I think it's pretty clear in the SRD:

From the SRD:
Ride:
Typical riding actions don’t require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem....
Fight with Warhorse: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
...

From the SRD:
Handle Animal: ...
Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
...
Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. ... Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose.

Emphasis mine.

A warhorse is trained to attack on command.

Ride clearly states that if you direct your mount to attack, you have to make a successful check to attack with it.

Therefore, HA to get it to attack, then Ride if you want to fight too.