Looking for examples of mounted characters/combats

[FireLance]

This certainly looks like one of those rules arguments that will continue until WotC makes a definitive statement in a core book, and even then people will make their own house rules .

The way I see it, the Ride skill covers two aspects:

1. personal ability to perform "stunts" such as guide with knees, stay in saddle, use the mount for cover, perform a soft fall and fast mount or dismount; and

2. ability to guide the mount to leap, move faster or remain calm in combat, if it is not war-trained.

The ability to fight with warhorse could be interpreted to fall into either the first or second category. In the first category, it is simply the ability to make an attack even when the mount is itself attacking. In order to get the mount to attack in the first place, a Handle Animal check is required if the mount has animal intelligence (1 or 2). If the mount's intelligence is 3 or more, there is no need to make an Handle Animal check, but the rider still has to make a Ride check in order to be able to attack with his mount.

In the second category, it is the ability to direct the mount to attack and also make an attack at the same time. This interpretation would make the Ride skill more powerful as its use then overlaps on another skill (Handle Animal) and is a free action instead of a move action. Presumably, one could also use the Handle Animal skill to command your mount to attack when you are riding, but do not intend to attack with the mount. For example, a druid riding an animal companion might want to command his mount to attack but cast a spell (for which he would have to make a Concentration check) instead of "attacking with mount".

My preference is for the first, but as always, YMMV.

 

[Gnimish88]

Counter the evidence against

Well, so far, no one has really addressed the evidence against Handle Animal, other then to point out that it is 3.0 rather then 3.5. Add to this the fact that the 3.0 Handle Animal is worded rather differently in a way that seems to indicate that you don't use it for a mount and you have a pretty compelling arguement that it no longer applies. So now I ask those who think it takes a Handle Animal check:

Why don't the examples of mounted characters (in 2 of 3 cases) bother getting ranks in Handle Animal? Are there more examples citable that have mounted combat character examples besides CW?

 

[Quasqueton]

Well, so far, no one has really addressed the evidence against Handle Animal, other then to point out that it is 3.0 rather then 3.5. Add to this the fact that the 3.0 Handle Animal is worded rather differently in a way that seems to indicate that you don't use it for a mount and you have a pretty compelling arguement that it no longer applies.

I would think that since 3.5 was revised to specifically clarify and clean up the rules, that it would be the one we all look at for this, rather than 3.0.

Why don't the examples of mounted characters (in 2 of 3 cases) bother getting ranks in Handle Animal? "

S&F is riddled with errors and problems. I wouldn't use S&F to support *any* rules argument. Hell, the halfling outrider doesn't have a BAB -- and the designer claimed that was intentional.

For CW, (without the book in front of me), the halfling outrider seems to be more a class of mobility and less a class for mount & rider combat -- so irrelevant to this rule question. The purple dragon knight, I don't know -- is the mount a dragon? In that case Handle Animal is unnecessary -- so, possibly irrelevant to this rule question. As for the cavalier, who knows what the design concept was? Maybe the character doesn't use his mount for attacking, or maybe the designer was on drugs that day, or maybe the editor missed it. <shrug>

I still think the rules in the PHB support my interpretation.

Look at it this way -- if it does not take a HA skill check to get the mount to attack, does the mount automatically attack? What if you don't want the mount to attack (so you don't have to make a Ride check to fight yourself)? Say two mounted knights meet on the field -- do their mounts automatically start kicking at each other, forcing their riders to make Ride checks to fight each other?

Edit: "Counter the evidence against" -- lack of evidence for something is not evidence against it. And in this case, I see evidence for one way (HA + Ride), and no evidence for the other (just Ride).

Quasqueton

 

[Gnimish88]

Thus the search for more information

My main contention is that this is an issue that is not well clarified, thus the need to find more information. Unfortunately, it seems from the lack of any citings beyond the ones I already mentioned that there isn't really any good examples on what the intent of the rules were. Think I will head off to custserv for an answer will likely convice none to move from the position they have already adopted.

Personally, once you drop S&F, I am inclined to think that a Handle Animal check is required for the mount to attack and that the designers of CW simply didn't take the time and effort to find out what the rules were (i.e. - incompetent).

I will also ask one last time: Does anyone know of any WoTC published 3.5 material that gives stats for mounted combat oriented characters or examples of mounted combat?

 

[Gnimish88]

Ah, good old custserv...

Well, here was the question:

Is a Handle Animal skill check required to direct your warhorse to attack?
If not, then why not? As a follow-up, if a Handle Animal check is required
to direct a warhorse to attack, will a it automatically attack an opponent
who attacked it or one that provokes an attack of opportunity?

and here was the answer:

This effectively uses the same rules as Trample, which is located on page 101 of the Player's Handbook. If you are directing your mount to make an attack against your opponent, you make a Ride check, not a Handle Animal check.

Thanks!

Quick show of hands, how many people expected an answer that would be THAT worthless? I must say even my low standards were undercut. Does anybody see anything useful out of this?

 

[FireLance]

I will also ask one last time: Does anyone know of any WoTC published 3.5 material that gives stats for mounted combat oriented characters or examples of mounted combat?

Apart from CW, I can't think of any others.

Why don't the examples of mounted characters (in 2 of 3 cases) bother getting ranks in Handle Animal?

I will address the 4 mounted combat sample characters mentioned in CW, though. These are: the Cavalier, the Halfling Outrider, the Knight Protector, and the Purple Dragon Knight. In the case of the Knight Protector and the Purple Dragon Knight, the characters have a special mount from paladin levels. Handle Animal is not required for special mounts as they have more than animal intelligence.

The Cavalier has a Handle Animal modifier of +4 (5 ranks -1 Charisma). The Halfling Outrider has no ranks in Handle Animal, but has ranger levels and probably uses her animal companion as her mount. As such, she gets +4 to Handle Animal checks through her Link. In both cases, the character only needs to roll 6 or better to succeed at the DC 10 Handle Animal check required to command an attack-trained mount to attack (25% chance of failure).

Note also that animals may have low intelligence, but they are not mindless. They will fight back if attacked, so the rider would not have to command his mount to attack an enemy that also attacks the mount. In addition, a war-trained mount usually knows the "Defend" trick, so it would automatically attack any opponent that attacks its rider. However, if the rider wants the mount to attack a specific target, he would have to use Handle Animal.

 

[Gnimish88]

Apart from CW, I can't think of any others.



I will address the 4 mounted combat sample characters mentioned in CW, though. These are: the Cavalier, the Halfling Outrider, the Knight Protector, and the Purple Dragon Knight. In the case of the Knight Protector and the Purple Dragon Knight, the characters have a special mount from paladin levels. Handle Animal is not required for special mounts as they have more than animal intelligence.

The Cavalier has a Handle Animal modifier of +4 (5 ranks -1 Charisma). The Halfling Outrider has no ranks in Handle Animal, but has ranger levels and probably uses her animal companion as her mount. As such, she gets +4 to Handle Animal checks through her Link. In both cases, the character only needs to roll 6 or better to succeed at the DC 10 Handle Animal check required to command an attack-trained mount to attack (25% chance of failure).

Note also that animals may have low intelligence, but they are not mindless. They will fight back if attacked, so the rider would not have to command his mount to attack an enemy that also attacks the mount. In addition, a war-trained mount usually knows the "Defend" trick, so it would automatically attack any opponent that attacks its rider. However, if the rider wants the mount to attack a specific target, he would have to use Handle Animal.

All well and good, but most people I have played with go for more of a sure thing. You rarely see a rogue or a monk with a total of 10 in Tumble, for example, though I don't suppose that really holds with book examples. As far as the Defend trick goes, that also requires a Handle Animal check.

 

[Quasqueton]

To: Custserv

Please clarify this rule:

If a character wants to do AX, does he do A as describe under the ABC rule, or X as explained in the XYZ rule?

Signed,

Gamer

* * *

To: Gamer

The character does G as listed under the 123 rule.

Thank you,

Custserv

* * *

Quasqueton

 

[Ferret]

Handle animal lets you handle animals. Read the skill: Handle an animal, and "Push" an animal could apply.

 

[Gnimish88]

The further adventures of Custserv...

Here is the futher e-mail to Custserv on the topic to date:

Well, here was the question:

Is a Handle Animal skill check required to direct your warhorse to attack?
If not, then why not? As a follow-up, if a Handle Animal check is required
to direct a warhorse to attack, will a it automatically attack an opponent
who attacked it or one that provokes an attack of opportunity?

and here was the answer:

This effectively uses the same rules as Trample, which is located on page 101 of the Player's Handbook. If you are directing your mount to make an attack against your opponent, you make a Ride check, not a Handle Animal check.

Thanks!

To which I replied:

While I appreciate the promptness of your reply, it doesn't fully answer my
question.

While riding a warhorse in combat, when you want your mount to attack an
opponent, is a skill check required? If so, what kind of check, what is the
DC, and can you give me a page reference that spells it out?

They responded:

You must make a DC10 (or DC20 if it is not a warhorse) Ride check, as described
on page 80 of the Player's Handbook.

Thanks!

**Please quote this e-mail in any reply.**

I followed up by asking why Handle Animal didn't apply, and pointed out what the 2 DCs they refered me to seem to actually be talking about. Should be interesting to see what they say. On a side note, I noticed that Custserv seems to have an 800 number, has anyone used it? How did it go?