Looking for tips from Frank and other powerbuilders--wood elf

[Zaruthustran]

Hi, looking for power build tips for a new character/campaign. The party is 8th level, and is composed of my character plus a sorcerer, druid, melee paladin, and archer rogue. The druid is going for Tamer of Beasts and the sorcerer focuses on illusions so there will be plenty of flank opportunities. The sorcerer also has Invisibility and spells that blind or stun (opening up other sneak attack possibilities). Most of the animals have improved grapple (still more sneak attack possibilities).

I've got a wood elf, 8th level, with these stats from 28 point buy (not counting level bumps):
Str 16 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 8

Favored class for wood elf is Ranger, and I want to have at least two levels of ranger for twf (to maximise number of sneak attacks) and track. Other than that I'm open to class ideas. Books are PHB, DMG, plus any WotC builder books.

Here's what I'm considering:

Rog 3 / Ftr 2 / Rng 3. Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician. This guy's thing is avoiding taking melee damage (that's what animals are for). He jumps in, gets a flank sneak attack with a longspear or other 2-handed weapon, then jumps away.

Rog 3 / Rng 5. Feats: combat reflexes, expert tactician, improved initiative. This guy gets an animal companion (yet another flanking buddy). His high init means he'll get in two sneak attacks against flat-footed targets (regular + expert tactician), but also means that he'll be all alone and in range for a retaliating full attack from whatever he just hit (and the friends of whoever he just hit). 10 Con and d6 & d8 hit dice makes it Very Bad to be in that position.

Bar 1 / Rng 7. Feats: Power Attack, extra rage, extra favored enemy. This guy would use scimitar + short sword as his two weapons, what for to maximize crit potential.

In all cases, first favored enemy is human, then evil outsider, then... what? Giant?

As for equipment, we've got 18,000 to spend. I was thinking +1 frost armor spikes, +2 other weapon (depending on build).

Any ideas or comments?

-z

 

[Darklone]

Usually I preferred to build a bbn2/rgr6... Uncanny Dodge is really nifty if the DM likes to use rogues as well and you might use the extra hitpoints.

 

[Saeviomagy]

There's not a lot of point picking up TWF if you're just going to waste it by using spring attack, not to mention the pointlessness of TWF if you're using a two-handed weapon, or the pointlessness of spring attack if you use a reach weapon (or rather - the pointlessness of using a reach weapon when you have spring attack).

Why Frost armour spikes if you're using two-handed weapons, or two weapons? It's a big investment for such a waste.

My suggestion would be to pick a method for inflicting damage, and take things which synerg... (my god, I sound like a management consultant...) go well together.

ie - rogue plus fighter plus reach weapon
OR
Rogue plus ranger plus (some method to not get wailed on when you full-attack)

etc.

 

[Hypersmurf]

(or rather - the pointlessness of using a reach weapon when you have spring attack).

?!

Taking a one-on-one, no space restrictions scenario:

1. You have a longsword and Spring Attack; he has a longsword.

You Spring in, attack once, Spring out; he charges (or moves) and attacks once. Repeat.

1 attack for 1 attack - no real advantage.

2. You have a longspear; he has a longsword.

He provokes one AoO on his first approach and attacks once. After that:

You 5' step back and full attack. He 5' steps forward and full attacks. Repeat.

Full attack for full attack - no real advantage.

3. You have a longspear and Spring Attack; he has a longsword.

He provokes one AoO on his first approach and attacks once. After that:

You Spring back 5', attack once, and Spring back another 5'.
He moves or charges forward, provoking an AoO, and attacks once.
Repeat.

1 attack and an AoO for 1 attack. You're getting twice as many attacks as him, with a reach weapon and Spring Attack.

Pointless?

-Hyp.

 

[youspoonybard]

That looks familiar...but I can't put my finger on it : P.

Yeah, Spring Attack is best with a reach weapon, IMO.

 

[Saeviomagy]

?!

Pointless?

-Hyp.

Erm... whoops?

Actually, given the described scenario, he's not going to be doing that, because he's got a large number of 'buddies' which will tend to be threatening his target, making it unlikely that he's going to have opponents chasing after him.

I did make a mistake, but I am right after all!

 

[Darklone]

Erm... whoops?
I did make a mistake, but I am right after all!

Ha ha ha. Nope you're not. If you have buddies who are too stupid to go with your tactics, they'll get their share of whoop @$$ from full attacks of huge monsters. That'll solve your problem pretty fast and you can use your Spring Attack goodness.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I am a big fan of the Lucern Hammer from A&EG. It does 2d4 damage, and has a crit multiplier of x4 and reach. All in all it does .5 points of damage less than a Glaive, but it does an extra .05 times damage from having a higher critical rate. So if your bonus damage is 6 points, your total average damage per hit (criticals included) is 12.65 - while switching to a glaive (criticals included) gives you 12.65 damage - which breaks even. If you can get your bonus damage past that - you are pulling ahead (and since you have Favored Enemies - you often will).

Yes, if Spring Attack is best with a reach weapon. just the ability to move to a flanking position, attack, and take a 5 foot step back is amazing for a reach fighter.

----

As for character levels: Many Shot is not very good, and you have no pressing reason to go TWF - so Ranger Levels after 5 are undesirable. Your other three levels should go no higher than 2nd in any one class as that can potentially give you XP penalties. Your proposed Rogue 3/ Fighter 2/ Ranger 3 build is particularly dangerous as you don't want another Fighter level and taking a level of Rogue or Barbarian would give you XP penalties - if you plan on continuing this game for long don't do that build.

However, Rogue 1/ Fighter 2/ Ranger 5 gives you much of the same benefits and allows you to take 2 levels of Rogue and 2 levels of Barbarian without penalizing yourself. If you don't want the animal (and I could see why you wouldn't), a build of Rogue 1/ Fighter 2/ Barbarian 2/ Ranger 3 would work fairly well.

You have an Archer and an Illusionist in your party, so you should be at least passably good at Archery yourself. Thus you should take Rapid Shot with your Ranger fighting style. Many times your party strategy should be to delay or confuse enemies for extended periods while you cover them in arrows. It's time consuming, but you can win many encounters without actually being attacked - which is invaluable.

As such, I suggest not taking the TWF route with Armor Spikes. It's legal, but many people won't let you do it anyway, and it isn't even all that effective. (never use up your fellow players' patience with rules lawyering that doesn't actually accomplish anything - save it for your party illusionist's image spells - those are brutal as written)

In any case, your primary strategy should be to switch between bow and reach weapon. With the Spring Attack concept you don't even need quickdraw. Things which power Reach Fighting:

Spring Attack
Knockdown
Cleave

-Frank

 

[Zaruthustran]

There's not a lot of point picking up TWF if you're just going to waste it by using spring attack, not to mention the pointlessness of TWF if you're using a two-handed weapon, or the pointlessness of spring attack if you use a reach weapon (or rather - the pointlessness of using a reach weapon when you have spring attack).

Why Frost armour spikes if you're using two-handed weapons, or two weapons? It's a big investment for such a waste.

My suggestion would be to pick a method for inflicting damage, and take things which synerg... (my god, I sound like a management consultant...) go well together.

ie - rogue plus fighter plus reach weapon
OR
Rogue plus ranger plus (some method to not get wailed on when you full-attack)

etc.

The TWF is for finishing off a creature, or when a creature is blinded, stunned, grappled, or otherwise denied dex. For those times, I want to be able to get in an extra sneak attack. An extra [2d6 + weapon damage + .5 Str bonus] is nothing to sneeze at.

I was considering enchanted armor spikes because armor spikes don't require a "draw" action. So if I suddenly find myself in a situation where I can make a full attack, I can--I don't have to blow it by first drawing a weapon. Also, I could Spring Attack with the spikes then retreat with the spear held ready to dish out AoOs (as others illustrated). Other reason for spikes is that it allows use of the (two-handed) reach weapon. If a target is surrounded or against a wall, I can reach past my allies and still attack. I'd enchant the spear as well, of course.

I do agree that TWF (a full attack tactic) and Spring Attack (a Move plus single attack tactic) can't used at the same time. They don't synergize.

-z

 

[Zaruthustran]

Wow, thanks for the detailed reply Frank. This is exactly what I wanted.

I am a big fan of the Lucern Hammer from A&EG. It does 2d4 damage, and has a crit multiplier of x4 and reach. All in all it does .5 points of damage less than a Glaive, but it does an extra .05 times damage from having a higher critical rate. So if your bonus damage is 6 points, your total average damage per hit (criticals included) is 12.65 - while switching to a glaive (criticals included) gives you 12.65 damage - which breaks even. If you can get your bonus damage past that - you are pulling ahead (and since you have Favored Enemies - you often will).

Yes, if Spring Attack is best with a reach weapon. just the ability to move to a flanking position, attack, and take a 5 foot step back is amazing for a reach fighter.

Good stuff. I can get past +6 if I put the level attribute bumps into Str. +4 x 1.5 = +6, then use a +2 weapon for a total of +8.

Unfortunately A&EG is unavailable in LG. But it is available in the RPGA campaign Legacy of the Green Regent--I might pick it up in that campaign.

As for character levels: Many Shot is not very good, and you have no pressing reason to go TWF - so Ranger Levels after 5 are undesirable. Your other three levels should go no higher than 2nd in any one class as that can potentially give you XP penalties. Your proposed Rogue 3/ Fighter 2/ Ranger 3 build is particularly dangerous as you don't want another Fighter level and taking a level of Rogue or Barbarian would give you XP penalties - if you plan on continuing this game for long don't do that build.

What about prestige classes? I was thinking Horizon Walker might be fun. Having Darkvision would really help, since right now my character has to have a light source in dark areas--killing any chance for using the Hide skill. Plus the damage bonuses are useful. Any other prestige class ideas? I don't think he can qualify for much.

However, Rogue 1/ Fighter 2/ Ranger 5 gives you much of the same benefits and allows you to take 2 levels of Rogue and 2 levels of Barbarian without penalizing yourself. If you don't want the animal (and I could see why you wouldn't), a build of Rogue 1/ Fighter 2/ Barbarian 2/ Ranger 3 would work fairly well.

And then take the next two levels in rogue, and pick up spring attack at 9th?

You have an Archer and an Illusionist in your party, so you should be at least passably good at Archery yourself. Thus you should take Rapid Shot with your Ranger fighting style. Many times your party strategy should be to delay or confuse enemies for extended periods while you cover them in arrows. It's time consuming, but you can win many encounters without actually being attacked - which is invaluable.

This is an interesting idea--I hadn't considered taking the archery feat. With it *and* spring attack I could spring in, sneak attack with the spikes, and spring away. Then, depending on what the opponent and my allies did, I could chose to either full attack with rapid shot or spring attack again. But not having Precise Shot would really screw up my to-hit chances, wouldn't it? Or were you thinking of using the bow only in special situations/as an opening volley only?

As such, I suggest not taking the TWF route with Armor Spikes. It's legal, but many people won't let you do it anyway, and it isn't even all that effective. (never use up your fellow players' patience with rules lawyering that doesn't actually accomplish anything - save it for your party illusionist's image spells - those are brutal as written)

Yeah, we got into a nasty argument about two-weapon fighting with spikes + two-handed weapon. I like spikes in that they allow you to threaten even while holding a bow, and you don't have to draw them.

Could you elaborate about image spells being brutal?

In any case, your primary strategy should be to switch between bow and reach weapon. With the Spring Attack concept you don't even need quickdraw.

My character has a Quiver of Ehlonna so storing the reach weapon isn't a problem. But why wouldn't you need quickdraw? I understand that you can draw as part of a move, but I don't want to have to drop my bow or longspear on the ground.

Things which power Reach Fighting:

Spring Attack
Knockdown
Cleave

-Frank

I don't have access to knockdown, unfortunately. So, how about:

Rog 3 (for sneak attack) Ftr 2 (for feats) Rng 3 (for skills, Track, feat). Pick up to 5 levels of ranger for companion and spells, then go Prestige Class (Horizon Walker? Shadow Dancer?)

The other option is Rog 3 Ftr 2 Bar 2 Rng 1, I guess. This gives less stealth, but rage, speed (useful for spring attack), and uncanny dodge. In both cases I'd start with Rogue for the skills.

Character level feats:
1. Combat Reflexes
3. Dodge
6. Expert Tactician (for extra sneak attacks)
(pick up Power Attack at 9, then Cleave at 12)

Fighter feats:
1. Mobility
2. Spring Attack

Ranger feat:
1. Rapid Shot

-z