Looking Forward to "Stormwrack"

[Steverooo]

Still, despite the dangers, I still think it would be worth getting some good rules out.

And I'm not arguing with you, on that... Your question was "Why are people afraid to..." That's the one I answered. Hopefully, Stormwrack will fix some of those problems, address some of those issues...

I have seen the "Well, I think we can all agree that Waterbreathing protects from pressure differentials, too!" arguement, before... to which I replied "No, we can't!" That's like saying that Spider Climb makes your hands and feet sticky, instead of increasing their gripping strength, like a spider's claws... The rules don't support that conclusion. Hence, no "You can't drop arrows!" nor "You gain a +2 Circumstance Bonus to Pick Pockets/Sleight of Hand!". Generally, if a spell turns you into a tree (or whatever), it tells you that it does. Waterbreathing doesn't mention bends protection.

Nor will it, in Stormwrack, I bet you. Why? Because that would allow exploring depths below 150', without further magical aid. The only other options are Shapechange, Wild Shape, and (perhaps) an extended version of Alter Self, with long duration and extra care in ascent/descent. Breaking the depths up into 150' levels allows the GM to set up "deeper mysteries" (all puns intended), which can't be reached at lower levels. (Again, that doesn't mean that you can't get there, just that you need another spell, Beads of Force, or something else.)

Waterbreathing, by itself, if it lasts long enough, could be used, alone, to go as deep as you wanted. The problem comes in diving and surfacing, when nitrogen narcosis or the bends would come into play (depending upon which way you're going). You may feel fine with "Waterbreathing covers it all; ascend/descend as fast as you like!", but it doesn't work for me. In my world, the world works just like this one, unless magic interferes! It's not "realism", it's versimilitude... and it's important, so that PCs have a sense of what they can and cannot do, or "get away with". Ascending or descending more than 30'/minute will produce the same results swimmers and divers have today, without magic.

BTW, was the use of 'P' to address me deliberate or just for short, since people who call me 'P' are generally people I've gamed with in the past?

No, we have never played together...

 

[Steverooo]

The ability to breathe underwater and swim are requirements, for my game. I took the whole "standard race uses magic to explore the depths" out of the equation from day one. There is one human PC, bt he was altered with grafts granting him the ability to live beneath the waves.

Which is why I briefly considered your campaign, then wrote it off, and never looked back... I can handle playing an Elf, or even a Dwarf, but an Acquatic Elf? Not really... The fact that I had to be inhuman, to play, was a turn-off, to me. Your mileage (and that of your players) may vary.

ODotF has a "gilled" PrR you can buy, but it doesn't interest me, either. It's just not my cup'o'tea. Hopefully, Stormwrack will present some new options, that won't be subject to dispelling. Maybe not...

I'll have to ask PirateCat to look in on this thread, and give us his Epic perceptions on this. I don't recall his players ever going to the ocean floor (or swimming it, either)!

 

[Pinotage]

And I'm not arguing with you, on that... Your question was "Why are people afraid to..." That's the one I answered. Hopefully, Stormwrack will fix some of those problems, address some of those issues...

Yes, I got you on that one!

The problem comes in diving and surfacing, when nitrogen narcosis or the bends would come into play (depending upon which way you're going). You may feel fine with "Waterbreathing covers it all; ascend/descend as fast as you like!", but it doesn't work for me.

Just to point out some clarifications - Nitrogen Narcosis (often called the purple moo-moo) is a condition where nitrogen bubbles in the blood lead to a narcotic effect, something akin to being drunk. It happens in deeper water where nitrogen is more likely to be absorbed into the blood stream. Nitrogen Narcosis has nothing to do with ascending or decending. It's physiological, I believe.

The bends is related. If you spend too much time underwater nitrogen can build up in the blood. When you rise to the surface, the bubbles expand, causing the bends, particularly dangerous if the bubbles get trapped in bloodvessels or your brain. You can't get the bends or nitrogen narcosis from diving too fast downward. Neither do you get them from rising to quickly if you've spent a safe amount of time beneath the water.

If you're diving within safe limits, i.e. when you're not spending too much time below the water to allow nitrogen to accumulate in your blood, you can ascend and descend as fast as you like, as long as you remember to breathe out when you ascend and equalize when you descend. The only limitation the bends placed on you is that it requires a decompression stop to allow the nitrogen to come out of your blood. This generally happens at about 5 m or 10 m under the water. I believe you can rise as quickly as you want to get to these points.

No, we have never played together...

That settles it then.

Pinotage

 

[Brakkart]

I got Frostburn and have so far passed on getting Sandstorm. I'll have a look at this one, but to be honest I'm more looking forward to what 2006 might bring, because i'm really hoping the next book in this series will be on Swamps or Jungles (Quagmire perhaps?). My campaign will have moved on from the Chultan penisular by then, but I do like those terrains and would love a book (or better yet two) detailing them with the same attention.

As for underwater, there at least one big underwater site that the characters are gonna have to visit at some point, so if it has good rules for covering adventure beneath the waves then I'll snap it up.

 

[Steverooo]

Just to point out some clarifications - Nitrogen Narcosis (often called the purple moo-moo) is a condition where nitrogen bubbles in the blood lead to a narcotic effect, something akin to being drunk. It happens in deeper water where nitrogen is more likely to be absorbed into the blood stream. Nitrogen Narcosis has nothing to do with ascending or decending. It's physiological, I believe.

<Ahem!> Ah... NO, actually!... You might want to get a copy of the U. S. Navy Diving Manual, either at the library, or it's now available on CD-ROM... In any case, read the chapters on blood gases. Y'see, OUR ATMOSPHERE IS MOSTLY NITROGEN! Ergo, you have Nitrogen dissolved in your blood ALL THE TIME, unless you have been breathing straight Oxygen for an extended period (as shuttle astronauts do before getting into their EVA suits).

Nitrogen Narcosis ("The Rapture of the Deep") IS caused by descending too rapidly. It is, indeed, physiological, but has nothing to do with absorbing N from the water around you... It has to do with the compression of gases already present within the blood.

The bends is related. If you spend too much time underwater nitrogen can build up in the blood. When you rise to the surface, the bubbles expand, causing the bends, particularly dangerous if the bubbles get trapped in bloodvessels or your brain. You can't get the bends or nitrogen narcosis from diving too fast downward. Neither do you get them from rising to quickly if you've spent a safe amount of time beneath the water.

Again, the Nitrogen was already there... At depths, it gets compressed, and as you rise, it expands, again. You DO get Nitrogen Narcosis from too fast descents, and you DO get the bends from coming up too fast! You obviously know something about diving, as you mention "a safe amount of time below the water." That time is spent, WHY? Because you're allowing the gasses dissolved within your blood to expand from two atmosphere's compression (at about 30'), to one (at the surface, assuming it's sea level). Coming up too quickly (let's say from 150' to the surface, as fast as you can swim) takes you from five atmosphere's compression to one. The Nitrogen trapped within your blood (which is more compressable than the Oxygen) expands too quickly, causing hemorrhages in blood vessels all over the body, including the eyes, nose, brain, capillaries, and a host of other places. The extent of the problems caused depends upon where the bubles settle, how much body fat you have (the US Navy diving tables were set up for young, healthy men), and a host of other factors (including luck)!

If you're diving within safe limits, i.e. when you're not spending too much time below the water to allow nitrogen to accumulate in your blood, you can ascend and descend as fast as you like, as long as you remember to breathe out when you ascend and equalize when you descend. The only limitation the bends placed on you is that it requires a decompression stop to allow the nitrogen to come out of your blood. This generally happens at about 5 m or 10 m under the water. I believe you can rise as quickly as you want to get to these points.

Wrongo, Keebler! Again, the Nitrogen is ALWAYS in your blood! (Well, okay, not ALWAYS... Undead do not face this problem, nor do technological peoples using rebreathers, which recycle their own exhaled CO2 into C + O2.) Ask a friend who dives if I'm full of it... Any navy divers, here?

The only limitation the bends placed on you is that it requires a decompression stop to allow the nitrogen to come out of your blood.

Sigh! So now you're agreeing with me? Re-read what I said about Waterbreathing, alone, in a previous post...

This generally happens at about 5 m or 10 m under the water. I believe you can rise as quickly as you want to get to these points.

If you mean "you can swim up or down 30' as quickly as you want", yes. That's a pressure differential of one atmosphere. Going deeper, faster, gives you Nitrogen Narcosis. Ascending higher, faster, gives you some degree of the bends. The Deep covers this, I believe (although not as well as I'd like).

So, using Waterbreathing, alone, will be likely to get you killed, due to your own PC's ignorance. Using Waterbreathing and a spell timer (I forget the name, but I have seen one) might allow you to time your swim down and back up, safely, if you could measure either the distance or pressure...

Better yet, Waterbreathing should be made about first level (after all, Alter Self, which can give you gills, IIRC, is), and another, higher-level spell, such as, say Depth-Diving, could be introduced in Stormwrack, to allow perception of all the needed info.

 

[Steverooo]

Here's An Interesting Fact:

"Until 1912, US Navy divers rarely went below 60 fsw (feet of seawater). In that year, Chief Gunner George D. Stillson set up a program to test Haldane's diving tables and methods of stage decompression. A companion goal of the program was to develop improvements in Navy diving equipment. Throughout a three-year period, first diving in tanks ashore and then in open water in Long Island Sound from the USS Walke (Destroyer No.34), the Navy divers went progressively deeper, eventually reaching 274 fsw."

By 1925, they had only 20 divers in the USN who were rated to go to 90'!

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq100-1.htm

 

[Pinotage]

<Ahem!> Ah... NO, actually!... You might want to get a copy of the U. S. Navy Diving Manual, either at the library, or it's now available on CD-ROM... In any case, read the chapters on blood gases. Y'see, OUR ATMOSPHERE IS MOSTLY NITROGEN! Ergo, you have Nitrogen dissolved in your blood ALL THE TIME, unless you have been breathing straight Oxygen for an extended period (as shuttle astronauts do before getting into their EVA suits).

Nitrogen Narcosis ("The Rapture of the Deep") IS caused by descending too rapidly. It is, indeed, physiological, but has nothing to do with absorbing N from the water around you... It has to do with the compression of gases already present within the blood.

Good grief! No need to rant. Sheesh!

Nitrogen narcosis is caused by more than the normal amount of nitrogen being in your blood. Of course it's always there - we've got an 80% nitrogen environment, but when you go too deep, typically below 100 ft, more nitrogen gets absorbed into your blood than your body can handle. Hence narcosis. Who said anything about absorbing nitrogen from the water around you? What are we - fish? When you go too deep, more nitrogen gets absorbed into your bloodstream changing the gas ratios in your blood and leading to narcosis. It's physiological, and has to do with deep diving where more nitrogen is likely to accumalate. As far as I'm concerned, I can't see how diving down too quickly would cause this.

Again, the Nitrogen was already there... At depths, it gets compressed, and as you rise, it expands, again. You DO get Nitrogen Narcosis from too fast descents, and you DO get the bends from coming up too fast! You obviously know something about diving, as you mention "a safe amount of time below the water." That time is spent, WHY? Because you're allowing the gasses dissolved within your blood to expand from two atmosphere's compression (at about 30'), to one (at the surface, assuming it's sea level). Coming up too quickly (let's say from 150' to the surface, as fast as you can swim) takes you from five atmosphere's compression to one. The Nitrogen trapped within your blood (which is more compressable than the Oxygen) expands too quickly, causing hemorrhages in blood vessels all over the body, including the eyes, nose, brain, capillaries, and a host of other places. The extent of the problems caused depends upon where the bubles settle, how much body fat you have (the US Navy diving tables were set up for young, healthy men), and a host of other factors (including luck)!

Uhm, no. You'll only get the bends if you have accumulated enough nitrogen in your blood from being under the water too long. If you go on a 60 ft dive for 10 minutes and then do an emergency ascent, you will not get the bends. If you dive within safe diving limites, i.e. well within the prescribed navy diving tables, and you do not require a decompression stop to remove nitrogen from your blood, you will not get the bends on an emergency ascent. If you don't breathe out, then yes, you can cause an embolism (rapture of the lungs or other air pockets in the body), but that's another matter. I agree that physiological differences make different people more prone to this, but I've done emergency ascents from 20 m down and I have not gotten the bends from dropping your weight belt and rising up as fast as you can. You're talking a very specific scenario, not a general case.

If you mean "you can swim up or down 30' as quickly as you want", yes. That's a pressure differential of one atmosphere. Going deeper, faster, gives you Nitrogen Narcosis. Ascending higher, faster, gives you some degree of the bends. The Deep covers this, I believe (although not as well as I'd like).

Are we arguing? I'm not and I wasn't. I was merely pointing out that I thought your comments on the bends and nitrogen narcosis needed clarification. I don't agree with your assessment of what causes the bends or nitrogen narcosis, and I was never stating anything regarding the use of such mechanisms in a D&D game. All my comments were non-D&D clarifications on real-world affects. Like others, I hope Stormwrack transfers some of this knowledge into game mechanics.

Pinotage

Edit: Just to point out, yes, if you spend more than a safe amount of time under the water, and fail to do a decompression stop, rising to quickly can result in the bends. For dives within safe limits, no, you can't get the bends from rising to quickly, unless you're an unfortunate physiological case. I've never heard of anything related to narcosis from descending too quickly, since a quick dive down does not give the body enough time to absorb the extra nitrogen into the blood that can cause partial pressure variations in the bloodstream and hence narcosis. Nitrogen in your body in abnormally high levels is narcotic. I believe they use similar effects for pain relief during child birth with nitrogen loaded air.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

It's debatable how far into this Stormwrack will get and how far any game supplement needs to get. Having written a couple of supplements, I can say its easy to parse this kind of factor too far, to persue factual details too far. Dithering over nitrogen levels and nitrogen narcosis in a world with dragon turles and merpeople is possible splitting hairs.

That said, for about a decade now, other air mixtures have been employed - such as oxygen and helium, rather than oxygen and nitrogen - to at least reduce the problems of nitrogen narcosis and the bends.

 

[qstor]

I think some of the material in the new issue of Dragon is from Stormwrack.

I got Sandstorm and Frostburn and thought those books were great. I'm looking forward to Sandstorm too.

Mike

 

[Aeolius]

Which is why I briefly considered your campaign, then wrote it off, and never looked back... I can handle playing an Elf, or even a Dwarf, but an Acquatic Elf? Not really... The fact that I had to be inhuman, to play, was a turn-off, to me.

True, no one ever accused me of running humanocentric campaigns. In the case of BPAA, I took an easy out, while allowing for a greater choice of playable races. As you noted, dispelling can still disrupt playing a stock race using magics to adventure underwater. If you were set on playing a human, you'd still need an appropriate template, bloodline, graft, or similar venue. How about an escaped aboleth slave? Still human, just...slimy! Another option would be to play a human.... an undead one... as a ghost or emancipated spawn.