D&D 4E Looks like 4e's combat is closer, and I LIKE it!!

[HeavenShallBurn]

Modern bows actually tend to have slightly less usable range than those used in earlier time periods. Within that range they tend to be considerably more accurate in the hands of a practiced archer.

History Corner Time
Practical range for aimed fire by a single archer were about 30 yards with a self bow raising to 60-80 yards with a powerful longbow. Some of the best horn-reinforced double recurve bows used by Ottomans could push this close to 100 yards in the hands of the best bowmen, but in the hands of most wasn't appreciably more than a longbow. The limitation is ballistic in nature, its built into the characteristic of arrows.
Crossbows had a far lower rate of fire than bows but during the medieval period had significantly greater aimed range. Modern crossbows have a much reduced range as a result of changes in the design of bolts when they were essentially turned into shortened arrows to simplify mass manufacturing by machines. During the medieval/rennaisance period the practical range limit for aimed single fire was approximately 150-175 yards for the lighter crossbows all the way up to 200-250 yards for the heavier ones used by the most expensive mercenary troops. Two contributing factors. 1.) Crossbows could have massive pulls far greater than any ordinary bow, 400-600lb draw weights were at the light end with the top about 1000-1200lb. 2.) The projectiles were designed more like a bullet than an arrow with a thick mass concentrating shaft and abbreviated fletching that vastly reduced windage and surface drag.
End History Corner

Even though I loved the ability to tweak out an archer build until my character needed a diviner cohort to spot targets for him it got a bit too extreme. Given that certain builds could push maximum range up to about 5 miles. So this particular change I don't deprecate. It'll probably mean magic ranges are shortened as well and I'm not very happy with that given how much high level magic seems to have been nerfed already, but eh not much to get worked up over I won't be playing it anyway.

I will say I always liked that except in the case of a successful ambush wilderness encounters tended to be at range where they handled more like firefights. Never saw a single character in my 3e campaigns both DMed and played that didn't carry some ranged weapon specifically for those fights even if their build was based around melee damage.

 

[Phasics]

Close range is great makes a "running" battle actually worthwhile.

DM can choose for his monster group to flee and you'll have to give chase to kill them all lest one escape and bring back a larger group. vs 3e where once the critter started running you just pull out the bows and take aim to finish off the encounter.

By the same token running from a superior force is now quite reasonable as you be out of range of the rear monsters while you attack the front allowing a smaller group to breakup a larger group and acutally avoid some damage from out of range monsters.

 

[Christian]

Back when I was a physics student, I took the time to work out some ballistics calculations for arrows fired from a longbow. Based on the release velocity of a longbow and the aerodynamics of arrows, I worked out that a 200-yard bowshot took about four seconds from archer to target. A target who saw the bowman release could easily move ten yards with a couple of direction changes before the arrow arrived. Doesn't matter how accurate the archer is, unless he can read minds or see the future, he's not going to hit a single target with a single shot.

A company of archers firing into a battalion of infantry at that range is another matter, naturally.

 

[hossrex]

We can figure this out....Take a pencil or something similar and drop it straight down from around nose level (where the arrow would be fired). It takes only about 1 second to hit the ground (depending on how tall you are). If you fire an arrow straight rather than at an arc it will hit the ground one second later....that makes the effective range of a sniper shot much less than 70 yards (assuming the 70yrd/sec and no serious wind resistance) unless you are trying to hit someone in the thigh or foot. 35-40 yards sounds a lot more reasonable. You can certainly get farther by firing at an arc but that is not a precision shot. Long range bow combat is only effective in volleys then.

EDIT: so, beyond 60-70 yrds it isn't an issue of how fast the arrow is going or moving out of the way....the arrow is going to hit the ground before it even reaches you.

WTF? No. You're entirely neglecting the force of energy.

With enough applied force, an arrow fired perpendicular to the ground would *never* again touch the ground (although it would eventually escape the earths gravity).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper#Snipers_in_warfare

This link says the world record for a sniper kill is just over a mile and a third (2430 yards) with a flight time of 4.5 seconds.

Unless you're suggesting it would take 4.5 seconds for a bullet to hit the ground if dropped from nose level.

Now *THAT* would be a magic bullet.

 

[hong]

WTF? No. You're entirely neglecting the force of energy.

With enough applied force, an arrow fired perpendicular to the ground would *never* again touch the ground (although it would eventually escape the earths gravity).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper#Snipers_in_warfare

This link says the world record for a sniper kill is just over a mile and a third (2430 yards) with a flight time of 4.5 seconds.

Unless you're suggesting it would take 4.5 seconds for a bullet to hit the ground if dropped from nose level.

Now *THAT* would be a magic bullet.

Lolwut?

 

[Stalker0]

This link says the world record for a sniper kill is just over a mile and a third (2430 yards) with a flight time of 4.5 seconds.

I promise you that the longest sniper shot ever performed is NOT in any record

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

This link says the world record for a sniper kill is just over a mile and a third (2430 yards) with a flight time of 4.5 seconds.

I've heard of an approximately 2600 meter kill in the Ashcan with a Robar but it's just an unconfirmed rumor far as I know.

Regarding the "perpendicular" and "dropping a pencil" thing those are patently ridiculous. All projectiles arch to some degree even at close range, in fact it can be very pronounced at close range as the projectile is still rising toward the peak and you have to drop your aim to compensate. Limitations on accuracy are primarily in the nature of the projectile itself. It's not about arc you can compensate for drop, the problem is when the forces of surface drag and windage produce too large a CEP in where it will strike.

 

[A'koss]

I remember discussing this a few years back, so here's a few things to keep in mind when talking about bowshots...

Let's take your medieval longbow and a typical "war arrow".

An arrow shot for 2 second's distance loses roughly 40% of it's initial speed and 60% of it's energy by the time it gets there. It typically reaches 1 second's distance by calculating 85% of the initial shot's speed in feet, then it's speed drops dramatically after that. So a bow that fires an arrow at an inital rate of 250' ft/sec, reaches about 210 in the first second. It reaches 2 seconds distance by calculating ~1.6x the initial shot's speed in feet. So the same bow fires an arrow 400' in 2 seconds and is now travelling at 150 ft/sec. I'm sure you could work out how much energy is lost at different ranges using this as a rough guide. Firing an arrow 1,000 ft would take an entire round thereabouts...


Just something to think about.

 

[Oldtimer]

WTF? No. You're entirely neglecting the force of energy.

With enough applied force, an arrow fired perpendicular to the ground would *never* again touch the ground (although it would eventually escape the earths gravity).

I recommend Physics 101. You are soo wrong.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

WTF? No. You're entirely neglecting the force of energy.

With enough applied force, an arrow fired perpendicular to the ground would *never* again touch the ground (although it would eventually escape the earths gravity).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper#Snipers_in_warfare

This link says the world record for a sniper kill is just over a mile and a third (2430 yards) with a flight time of 4.5 seconds.

Unless you're suggesting it would take 4.5 seconds for a bullet to hit the ground if dropped from nose level.

Now *THAT* would be a magic bullet.

I agree that the drop of an arrow fired from a bow would be different than the drop of a pencil with no forward momentum (would fletching help to keep it airborne longer as well? or does it just serve to stabilize?)

However, if you examine that record sniper shot (which may or may not be the actual world-record sniper shot, but that's not the point) again, you'll notice that the article points out that the bullet had a drop of about 70 meters, or 230 ft. That must be drop from the zenith of its flight arc, but regardless, this means that the sniper was essentially lobbing, firing with an arc. It was not a straight shot, meaning that naturally it would take longer for the bullet to reach the ground (or target).