Looting and the State

Jürgen Hubert said:
Have you dealt with such situations in your campaign?

Yes. In my Eberron game, there have been various situations where such issues have come up. With the PCs being based primarily in Sharn but adventuring far outside it too, they have had the following situations:

* Killing enemies in the middle of the city after an unexpected fight (result: the City Watch took the loot)

* Killing enemies in places far from civilization (result: PCs kept the loot)

* Killing enemies far from civilization while exploring historical ruins (result: since selling items from the civilizations involved is illegal without a permit, their patron obtained a permit and took the historical items; the PCs kept the other stuff)

* Defeating enemies in the middle of the city and helping the Watch (result: the Watch gave them a number of the recovered items in thanks)

As with everything else in the campaign, whatever occurs does so based on a combination of in-game plausibility and PC actions (having good relations with the law and the powers that be can make you a lot more likely to be able to retain powerful/costly stuff). And what will eventually screw the PCs, of course.
 

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I think all depends on Powerlevels. If the state is a big nation with a working bureaucracy a standing army and some high level NPCs and the PCs are low level hired mercenaries, the state can enforce taxes. The state does not care if the PCs are angry and they have the Power to enforce taxes. If on the other hand the PCs are high level Demon- and dragonslaying Heroes the state has an active interest in happy PCs. The state wants them to stay and help if trouble comes around.
The latter PCs are assets for every state whereas the former are just potential trouble makers.
 

When its appropriate to the game I have levied taxes (delving permit, specificed in the terms of the contract, statuory regulations, etc) on the rough value of treasure recovered, but the PCs have had disclosure of these costs beforehand.

I am more likely to say whatever they discover is there's and leave it at that; its not appropriate after every dungeon bash having the PCs make bluff and conceal checks to persuade the guard they had this sword before and to conceal that 5000gp gem. Not only is it a waste of our time it would wind us all up!

If it was appropriate to the setting/game then yes, membership fees, permits or rights, all good as long as it doesn't detract from the adventuring.
 

Jürgen Hubert said:
Have you dealt with such situations in your campaign?

I haven't because to be honest with you, that would work up until about 10th-12th level. And then the next time Mr. Tax Collector tried that, the party would send his talking head back to the king to tell him how things were going to be from then on.
 

Jürgen Hubert said:
Let's say the party goes delving into some dungeon. They slay some monsters, and find some magic items. So it's obvious that these items are legally theirs once they emerge from the dungeon.

Is it?

"Finders, Keepers" might be an acceptable solution for wilderness areas with plenty of monsters where the local lords are so glad to see some monsters gone that they ignore the wealth adventurers gain from going into the dungeons. But what about more civilized nations? Will they just let some dirty adventurers walk away with powerful magic items or large amounts of gold looted from their land if they catch wind of it? What gives the adventurers the right to simply take these items?

What is "the state" and what is a "right"? Those sound like terms from modern political science, whereas most D&D settings (published and homebrau) are based on medieval or dark age models (with a few asiatic settings thrown in as well). Most of the governments supposed in those settings are feudal monarchies, with a smaller number being primitive autocracies. Since the plundered treasure exists outside the web of reciprocal obligations I doubt that any monarch or lord will lay claim to it.

A typical fantasy medieval polity is not really a "state" and doesn't have a bureaucracy and doesn't have the egalitarian concept of proportional taxation. Everyone may be required to pay an annual tax to the king or emperor (or maybe both, and maybe the tax collector will try to squeeze a bit extra out of those he knows to have come into some money) but there's no Internal Revenue Service.

Suppose that there were a "royal decree" saying that the king claims 80% of all treasure recovered from abandoned places in the realm. Who's counting? Who's reporting? Who's keeping records? Probably nobody. Except under extreme circumstances, such news would probably never even reach the ears of the king. But if it doesn't reach his ears, then who will know and who will care? Not to mention the fact that any king making such a proclamation is rapidly going to find himself signing a Magna Carta, because I don't think that his warriors are going to be terribly amused at the idea that any swag they wring out of the countryside has to be handed over to the crown. After all, the king doesn't need the money but he does need happy warriors.

The situation is even more pronounced in most despotisms. They will likely have an even lower form of organization, and it will be more corrupt, which means the despot will probably never hear about the plundered gold. Only in a really small timer like a warlord is going to be (out of necessity, since he leads by personal charisma and prowess) personally involved enough to know about some band of nobodys pulling some loot out of an old ruin. He may send his troops to mug them, or he may invite them over for a feast and try to con the gold out of them that way (or just poison them), or just as likely he won't even care. But he would probably never put down a rule saying that treasure was owed to him, except in the case of those warriors directly in his employ. The warlord doesn't have tax collectors, although he does have some small time thugs.

In a feudal setting, if the gold gets taken away it will probably be at the hands of the local potentate who will simply send some of his boys down to the tavern and demand of the PCs an entirely ad hoc "tax" that is simply made up. Depending on the potentate and the henchmen, it may require a relatively small or large appeasement.

Every once in a while (more commonly in Sword & Sorcery settings) I expect that you will encounter an official who is greedy and ambitious enough that he will try to wrest 100% of the gains from the adventurers. This sort of thing probably happens to Conan all the time.

Anyway, in a setting like the Dark Ages (which is what a lot of fantasy settings resemble), is anybody really going to be concerned if you went into an old Roman ruin and dug up a bunch of coins? Probably not, I would think.
 


WayneLigon said:
I haven't because to be honest with you, that would work up until about 10th-12th level. And then the next time Mr. Tax Collector tried that, the party would send his talking head back to the king to tell him how things were going to be from then on.


But therein lies the fun. . . :cool:
 


Falkus said:
That's only if there is a law concerning the taxation of adventurers gathering loot and killing monsters. It could conceivably be viewed as a form of public service, with the loot being their reward (after all, monsters represent a security risk to the kingdom).

Exactly. The king can be happe the adventurers don't start charging him (hazard pay alone would ruin your average kingdom)

Jürgen Hubert said:
The problem here is that this sends a message that the government is unwilling to enforce the law against a certain segment of the population - and one of the most dangerous segment at that. This might cause other citizens to wonder why they have to pay taxes...

Because they don't have as easy a time with your average guard?
Because they don't go and rid the kingdom of the most dangerous of predators?
Because they can't go and rid the kingdom of the most dangerous of predators? (Well, they can try, but you know how it is with the snowballs and the hells)

Those are all very good reasons.

You could call adventuring services rendered to the crown, and the stuff they find their pay.
 

WayneLigon said:
I haven't because to be honest with you, that would work up until about 10th-12th level. And then the next time Mr. Tax Collector tried that, the party would send his talking head back to the king to tell him how things were going to be from then on.

And in my opinion, that's not a bad thing. For this will get even the most politicially ignorant PCs involved in politics, which gives the evil DM all sorts of plot possibilities...

With such an action, the PCs will make a powerful statement that they will not respect the authority of the local ruler. This might cause retailation from said ruler, who does not want to see his authority erode, rivals of said rulers, who wish to see his authority eroded further and want to use the PCs to that end, general resentment from "respectable citizens", who don't see why they should have to keep paying taxes when those thugs don't, and so forth...
 

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