Looting and the State

[Krafus]

And in my opinion, that's not a bad thing. For this will get even the most politicially ignorant PCs involved in politics, which gives the evil DM all sorts of plot possibilities...

With such an action, the PCs will make a powerful statement that they will not respect the authority of the local ruler. This might cause retailation from said ruler, who does not want to see his authority erode, rivals of said rulers, who wish to see his authority eroded further and want to use the PCs to that end, general resentment from "respectable citizens", who don't see why they should have to keep paying taxes when those thugs don't, and so forth...

Forgive me for saying so, but it sounds like you've already made up your mind.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, it comes down to the ressources the ruler has to enforce his will. A group of soldiers might be able to convince a low-level adventuring group to let go of part or all of their newly-acquired wealth, but that will become harder at high levels, unless the ruler has (presumably) loyal squads of high-level enforcers at his disposal.

One thing I think I'd do would be to be upfront about the local realm's loot taxation laws. If the party knows going into the dungeon that the law dictates a fifth of all earnings going to the crown, they won't have reason to complain when the tax collectors show up when they return in town with the hobgoblins' treasure hoard. On the other hand, if the adventurers emerge triumphant from the lair of the red dragon that's been terrorizing the kingdom for generations, only to find some bespectacled twit and a group of soldiers demanding they hand over all the treasure in the name of the king when they've never heard of any such law, they'll be naturally inclined to demonstrate why they were able to kill the dragon in the first place.

Another valid concern is that taxation might make the PCs underpowerd for their level. "Right, I'd love to be able to hit that pit fiend, but after taxes I didn't have enough gold left to sufficiently enchant my sword. Joy." Perhaps you could give them extra loot over recommended wealth levels, with the expectation that the extra loot will soon be lost from taxes.

There's also the issue of reasonability at hand. How much can people who have risked life and limb for their gains be expected to hand over in taxation before deciding taxes are too high and go see if the next realm over is less greedy, and to hell with that upcoming orc invasion? The amount might well vary from party to party, but if a realm consistently shows itself over decades and centuries to be rapacious where adventurers' earnings are concerned, word will logically spread throughout the adventuring community.

I agree that loot taxation can provide a lot of opportunities for roleplaying, but IMHO it also needs to be handled carefully, as it could easily turn the PCs off the realm where it's happening, or even the players against the DM.

 

[Victim]

If the state was strong in the first place, they wouldn't have the monsters for the adventurers to loot.

Besides, imagine what adventurers would do with a tax code. "Well, our magic items are capital goods, so we get tax credits. And then there's depreciation. Looks like we don't owe anything."

 

[Banshee16]

There's also the issue of reasonability at hand. How much can people who have risked life and limb for their gains be expected to hand over in taxation before deciding taxes are too high and go see if the next realm over is less greedy, and to hell with that upcoming orc invasion? The amount might well vary from party to party, but if a realm consistently shows itself over decades and centuries to be rapacious where adventurers' earnings are concerned, word will logically spread throughout the adventuring community.

Well, how much do oil companies, who have complicated, expensive, and dangerous to operate oil drilling platforms pay to the governments who own the rights to where the drilling is taking place?

At the end of the day, I think having the taxes helps to firmly cement the fact, in campaign, that the PCs are part of a society, and that society has rules. Just like they can't just walk into a tavern and kill someone they don't like, they also have to pay taxes. And I think this could create some great hooks and scenarios....bribing tax collectors, raiding the tax collector's caravan to get money back, or being hired by the king to support a tax collector who's being sent to collect from a powerful (and evil) group of adventurers...

Lots of plot opportunities. Maybe the PCs have rivals they haven't been able to catch, but those villains haven't paid their taxes, the king needs someone to "bring them in", and the ordinary low-level grunts are just not suited for the job.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

If the state was strong in the first place, they wouldn't have the monsters for the adventurers to loot.

Besides, imagine what adventurers would do with a tax code. "Well, our magic items are capital goods, so we get tax credits. And then there's depreciation. Looks like we don't owe anything."

Well, even in our world, which has powerful states, has civilians who get munched by rather ordinary "monsters".....like hikers who get mauled by bears or cougars, urban dwellers who are attacked by poorly trained dogs, etc.

Now, imagine if that bear was covered in armoured skin, and could breath fire. It would make it *a lot* harder for the park warden to do something about it

Banshee

 

[Numion]

Well, even in our world, which has powerful states, has civilians who get munched by rather ordinary "monsters".....like hikers who get mauled by bears or cougars, urban dwellers who are attacked by poorly trained dogs, etc.

Well, the states in our world are actually trying to make sure all the 'monsters' aren't killed. If they actually wanted to make sure no hikers get killed (at all), it would be no problem to make a large mammal species extinct.

It just happens that we (rightly so) think that the existence of wildlife is important, even though it might get some people mauled at times.

Usually bears just avoid humans, for example.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Forgive me for saying so, but it sounds like you've already made up your mind.

Only insofar that I have the firm opinion that nothing the PCs do happens in a vacuum.

While they are still relatively weak, they are often at the mercy of the local authorities - so some sort of accomodation is neccessary, either through paying taxes or hiding the loot.

When they get stronger, they can either seek more favorable accomodations (certainly not impossible - power brokers will know the value of having powerful adventurers as allies, and as long as both sides come to some sort of unwritten agreement, the PCs will be able to get more out of such occasions - though even then that means they will be peripherally involved in politics) or make a statement that they feel the government's rules do not apply to them (which is, of course, even more political).

But then again, high-level PCs can't help but getting involved in politics unless they travel from place to place all the time, and this is just one more reason why this should be so. Once they have become powerful enough to take charge of their destinies, the world will take notice and wonder how they fit into the grand scheme of things. And the PCs should better answer that question for themselves - before someone else decides it for them and labels them as threats.

 

[Ed_Laprade]

One group I was with had an interesting time with tax colloetors. The GM set it up so that we'd be taxed on entering a walled town. This we knew, and weren't too concerned with. Until we cleaned out a dungeon after gaining a few levels and went to the nearest town, which we hadn't been to before... So the local gate guards wanted to tax our loot.

"What loot? I've had this magic sword since I left home, and all this gold was gifted to me by my rich old man." Sez one of the guys. Immediately half the loot we'd just collected became family heirlooms. How could the guards tell, one way or another? Well, they'd just get an MU to cast a spell to find out if we were lying or not. Needless to say, we weren't going to put up with that. So we just acted all insulted, pointed out that they couldn't tax us until we entered the city, and that we now weren't going to do so. After that we only went to unwalled towns and villages. (This was 1E were selling magic items was practically unheard of anyway.)

Basically, taxing adventurers who are mostly out, you know, aventuring is pretty much a waste of time. When they settle down and start buying fixed properties, that's when you strat taxing them.

 

[Imperialus]

one idea might be that rather than tax them directly they are encouraged or required to buy a title.

 

[Clavis]

I actually once had the PCs get sued by the original owners of the (stolen) magic items they recovered from a dungeon. They whole trial was basically played for laughs, since the party wound up hiring a lawyer whose personality was a parody of a locally known attorney. It was all role-played out, but with Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate checks used to determine the outcome from stage to stage. The PCs won the case, but it set them up for the previous owners to try to get the magic items back by other means...

 

[Sir Falke]

Yoy should also consider what means to be an "adventurer". Most campaign settings assume that an adventurer is an extraordinary man/woman who deals on a daily basis with dangers any other sane living person would run screaming from. So, they move on another scale, and the reason others don't envy them that much for all the gold they get, or enforce upon them the troubles of the "commoners", is because it is almost certain that, sooner or later, they'll meet their match and die, or worse.

Obviously, you can consider some alternatives, like an "adventurers fee", (adjustable based on "fame, a.k.a. level, or the notoriety of the sorrounding dungeons) wich consists of a set amount of gp and allows you to "go adventuring", and then it would be their risk alone.

Of course, finally, it could very well happen that the more greedy local lords enforce the tax with guards and soldiers, but it generally evolves into a plot device, becasuse almost always the players will want revenge.