Looting and the State

My players have the annoying habit of asking random "authority figures" for rewards for adventuring. They are then usually reminded at that point about the lucrative nature of what they are doing, and that taxes may continue to be waived.

In terms of who has the right, there are probably several potential claiments for any treasure hoard (like the previous owners or there heirs). But it certainly would be normal for the local bigwig to demand a cut, wether on firm legal ground or not. If treasure finding was a common activity (as is implied in the game) then some standards would probably be put in place.

There is also the special case of property, like that manor, castle, etc that the party clears out. Here, I will have some claiment or claiments. Though in one long running game, the party got the right to the castle eventually. But they had to earn it.
 

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TerraDave said:
In terms of who has the right, there are probably several potential claiments for any treasure hoard (like the previous owners or there heirs). But it certainly would be normal for the local bigwig to demand a cut, wether on firm legal ground or not. If treasure finding was a common activity (as is implied in the game) then some standards would probably be put in place.

Hence the attraction of lost kingdoms! It's all found money at that point.

It would be an amusing experiment to do a humorous one-shot wherein the game is played according to modern social-political assumptions. So we end up with the party getting sued by multiple claimants, etc.
 

Kid Charlemagne said:
So, bad government = governments that tax the PC's.

Yup.

Kid Charlemagne said:
so if the PC's take over, they'd logically abolish all taxes.

Abolish tax on themselves (it's good to be king) or just loot the place. My group is not stupid.

Kid Charlemagne said:
Then they'd have to spend their loot to pay for public services, ending up with the same net result... :)

Not. There are many other cities.

Kid Charlemagne said:
My view on this is that governments will set taxes (if any) at a level low enough that PC's will find it more convenient to pay than to fight.

Depends. All? No.

Kid Charlemagne said:
PC's are already rich beyond most commoners' dreams.

Agreed.

Kid Charlemagne said:
Nations will also try whatever they can to get PC-types to help them out, and this will give them some ability to deal with "rogue" parties.

The key word here is try, and if. Level above 12 tends to be exceedingly rare. Gather information and diplomacy, then horse trade.

Kid Charlemagne said:
Keep in mind that nations will have had centuries of experience in dealing with this sort of thing.

Nations have, but nobles will be nobles. There tends to be no quality control for nobles.
 

What I don't see is any mention of loyalty. I guess it is something dispised rather than cherished these days. Loyalty to friends, family. Loyalty to King and Country. Loyalty to your God.

If a kingdom (say... Spain) claims authority over an area (say the Carribean), granted by a divine authority (like the Pope), and having been sponsored with ships, equipment, and a charter to plunder the area, are you really going to try and usurp the King's authority by refusing to pay taxes? Are you willing to risk excommunication? Consider that in order to gain the charter, you agree to take along representatives of the divine authority (as "missionaries"). Furthermore, can you be certain that all the participants of your little expedition are willing to be excommunicated, and their families thrown in jail (or worse), because you want to withhold 20%?

The trouble with making enemies of an entire state, is that you can't kill an entire state. It isn't a mere dragon you can chop to pieces. It is only slightly easier than killing a religion, as most states tend to be slightly more pragmatic.

Of course, when every DnD character grows up an orphan in the wilderness without any emotional attachments to the world at all, then why should they pay taxes?
 

Besides which, the rich and powerful have always been exempt from paying too much tax, in one manner or another. Extorting taxes from them has only a marginal effect on a state's economy anyway. Its the taxes against the poor masses which bring in the greatest amount of money.
 

When the items that are found are worth a great deal, the government can become VERY insistent about getting its fair share. In one case, I was running a game in which the PCs were "pressured" by the government to turn over the shiny pile of powerful magical items they had liberated from the monster-infested depths. At the time, the PCs were outclassed by the large numbers of soldiers pointing crossbows at them, but the PCs had the last laugh in the end (as I had hoped for, if not quite so drastic): they led a successful rebellion against the government because they held a major grudge against the King.
 

Kid Charlemagne said:
So, bad government = governments that tax the PC's, so if the PC's take over, they'd logically abolish all taxes. Then they'd have to spend their loot to pay for public services, ending up with the same net result... :)

My view on this is that governments will set taxes (if any) at a level low enough that PC's will find it more convenient to pay than to fight. PC's are already rich beyond most commoners' dreams. Nations will also try whatever they can to get PC-types to help them out, and this will give them some ability to deal with "rogue" parties. Keep in mind that nations will have had centuries of experience in dealing with this sort of thing.
Hmm, Lyre of Building + Bard for the construction work, Decanter of Endless Water for the drought problem so the people can keep on eating their own crops, and since the PCs are already high level they'll handle invading armies themselves. Swap a few acres of land and magnificent churches for cleric heals to the needy (Lyre of Building again) to handle a universal health care solution, and finish things off with the endless food items to feed the hungry. Support your local sherrif by using convicted criminals as slave labor (Dominate Person spells make them reliable laborers) and the PCs personally destroy any crime syndicates that pop up (Again, highest level badasses around) you've handled the entire task of the government without taxes. It's not all that hard using magic items and assuming the PCs are five levels higher than everybody else.

green slime said:
If a kingdom (say... Spain) claims authority over an area (say the Carribean), granted by a divine authority (like the Pope), and having been sponsored with ships, equipment, and a charter to plunder the area, are you really going to try and usurp the King's authority by refusing to pay taxes? Are you willing to risk excommunication? Consider that in order to gain the charter, you agree to take along representatives of the divine authority (as "missionaries"). Furthermore, can you be certain that all the participants of your little expedition are willing to be excommunicated, and their families thrown in jail (or worse), because you want to withhold 20%?

The trouble with making enemies of an entire state, is that you can't kill an entire state. It isn't a mere dragon you can chop to pieces. It is only slightly easier than killing a religion, as most states tend to be slightly more pragmatic.
Actually killing a state is pretty easy. Chop the king to pieces, and give a stern lecture to his heir about respecting his betters, and the state will likely be singing a new tune real quick. The Pope threat also seems a bit dubious, is St. Cuthbert really going to be happy with his Pope telling one of his top Paladins to go worship Pelor because the Pope wants the goods, hard won by the Paladin in righteous combat against the forces of evil, to go to a king who did nothing? Why is the Pope supporting a mere worldly power vs. some of the god's mightiest worshippers? Remember that there's no single almighty dark-ages Catholic church but rather a whole lot of competing gods here, and the gods are quite real with their own agendas.
 

Moonstone Spider said:
Hmm, Lyre of Building + Bard for the construction work, Decanter of Endless Water for the drought problem so the people can keep on eating their own crops, and since the PCs are already high level they'll handle invading armies themselves. Swap a few acres of land and magnificent churches for cleric heals to the needy (Lyre of Building again) to handle a universal health care solution, and finish things off with the endless food items to feed the hungry.

Congratulations - you've just wrecked the livelihood of the farmers (the majority of the working population in pre-industrial settings). After all, why should anyone buy food when they can get it for free? Sure, some people might buy food as luxury items, but that's likely only a small minority - most people will want to spend their money on more important matters.

So you have created a welfare state with lots of people who have nothing to do. You might have abolished taxes, but this nation's troubles are far from over...
 


Jürgen Hubert said:
Congratulations - you've just wrecked the livelihood of the farmers (the majority of the working population in pre-industrial settings). After all, why should anyone buy food when they can get it for free? Sure, some people might buy food as luxury items, but that's likely only a small minority - most people will want to spend their money on more important matters.

So you have created a welfare state with lots of people who have nothing to do. You might have abolished taxes, but this nation's troubles are far from over...
Hardly. This assumes that the PCs have enough items to feed everybody all the time, and that everybody will be satisfied with the bland tasteless pap an everfeeding spoon supplies, both of which strike me as unlikely. All these items will do is remove the spectre of starvation.

Even if this is so, I've simply raised them into a higher slot technologically. Hardly 1 person in 100 is a farmer today thanks to farm machinery, yet the world's population is not unemployed now, is it? The lowered demand for farmers in real life let people develop art and technology, in DnD it frees up more people to do other interesting things, such as research more powerful magics (Even if they're level 1, having 75 adepts doing aid another on their knowledge:Arcana checks should do something impressive), become legendary artists, invent new gadgets, etc. Basically freeing up the farmers means a brief period of turmoil followed by the Renaissance.
 

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