Lord of the Rings: Did PJ lose the plot?

[buzzard]

The film is actually about how the populace can be manipulated into going to war for "patriotic" reasons, and the dangers of fascism. This is cloaked within a pretty-teen action film.
Many people, especially when it first came out, missed this.

Since then, most people who see the film are aware of its dual levels, and give it a big thumbs up.

Then there are those of us who knew all this and realize that this premise the directly contradictory to the premise of the nook, and dislike it for that. Call it Bug War, and I may have been able to stomach it (though probably not since it simply wasn't a good movie).

Also I am not about to suffer through the movie again. It wasn't good the first time, and repetition won't add to it. I undertand the message. It didn't impress me.

buzzard

 

[Nightfall]

Trust me, in not reading Battlefield Earth, you didn't miss much.

I'll take your word for it Blacky.

Reap,

Okay well yes I saw giant bugs but all they did was swarm. I guess I expect my bugs to act like Shelob. Sue me.

I also agree with Buzzard. I've seen it twice...and twice I was like "Why did I do this to me?!!" Enough said.

 

[reapersaurus]

True, buzzard.
There are those people who so enjoy the book's themes, that they can't abide what Paul Verhoeven did with the film version.

They don't like the changes made from a WW2 era book, to update it with modern-day sensibilities (and with hindsight).

They don't like seeing the bugs as anything but a all-Evil Boogeyman, that exists to be destroyed/taken over.

They are the minority, though.

Most people who say the things that the other poster said are simply ignorant about the movie.
Nothing wrong with that, but saying the things he said about the movie sure doesn;t make him look like an intelligent reviewer of the subject.

 

[Nightfall]

All I said was I didn't like the movie. It has no bearing on the material presented in the actual book by Heinlein. If I feel a movie sucks, it sucks. I felt the life drain out me watching characters I'd much rather have shot myself than watched more of on the screen. I've had more depth in a window pane than I did from these performances.

 

[mmu1]

The film is actually about how the populace can be manipulated into going to war for "patriotic" reasons, and the dangers of fascism. This is cloaked within a pretty-teen action film.
Many people, especially when it first came out, missed this.

That's pretty amazing, given how amazingly subtle Veerhoven's message was.

It's a decent enough sci-fi movie with a load of silly and over the top anti-war propaganda in it, nothing more.

 

[Nightfall]

That's pretty amazing, given how amazingly subtle Veerhoven's message was.

It's a decent enough sci-fi movie with a load of silly and over the top anti-war propaganda in it, nothing more.

Thank you. It wasn't even a decent movie in my opinion. I fell asleep about 2/3rd of the way through it. So I was like huh...and then shrugged and finished napping.

 

[nikolai]

I just want to post to bolster my claim that the plot of the books is different to that of the films. There are other small alterations, but the driving idea behind the books it the battle over the possession of the Ring. A short summary would be this:

Sauron wants to enslave Middle Earth, and needs it to be safe, and Gandalf wants it destroyed. Saruman, in awe of Sauron's power, "allies" with Mordor, but seeks to capture the Ring for himself and use it against Sauron. So when Pippin looks into the Palantir, Sauron thinks Saruman has betrayed him. And when Aragorn looks into it, Sauron fears that he has the Ring and will use it to overthrow him, so lauches his attack on Gondor as a pre-emptive strike. Denethor then goes mad when he sees Frodo has been captured in Cirith Ungol: and Sauron has the ring and is unstoppable. The books is set around a drama over the possession of the Ring; and Frodo's journey and what's happening elsewhere are closely connected.

In the film this is lost; the whole chain of causation behind the books is altered. From the films, you'd think that Sauron wants to commit genocide, replacing men with orcs and everyone else just has to stop him. And all the stuff with the rest of the fellowship doesn't have much connection to Frodo and Sam's quest.

It's a different story. They're very good films, but I find watching them (particularly TTT and RotK) quite strange, because in terms of story the similarity between them is pretty superficial.

 

[nikolai]

In the story: ... the ring wasn't destroyed because someone slipped and fell whilst having a fight.

Yes it was. That's EXACTLY how the Ring is destroyed in the book. Frodo claims the Ring, puts it on, and Gollum attacks, biting off Frodo's finger and then falling into the Cracks of Doom.

No it wasn't. In the film - after losing his finger and the Ring, and Gollum's dance - Frodo fights with Gollum to remain the Ring, and Gollum falls while fighting, there is also a complicated "have they both gone in" action pic cliche used.

In the books the ultimate reason for Gollum's fall is left ambigous. I don't want to express a view on why what happened, and risk the thread being sidetracked; but arguments can be made for luck, providence, temptation, or the use of the power of the Ring on Gollum. In the film: the most obvious cause of Gollum's fall was because Frodo was tring to beat him senseless. I fell this is a little strange given the importance of the mercy shown to Gollum that the film took from Tolkien. What saved Middle Earth was Frodo's decision to smack Gollum around some; so much for pity and mercy.

nikolai.

 

[reapersaurus]

nikolai - you are concentrating on the minutia, and missing the point.

Your "summary" just 'happens to' bring up elements that were not in the theatrical releases of the movie.

Really - WHO CARES about the minutia of Tolkein's plot other than fanboys?
It's not essential to the plot what internal motivations Saruman had in joining Sauron. IIRC, it is ambiguous in the book, and presented similarly in the movie.
It is not essential the EXACT impulse that caused Sauron to start the attack on Gondor. It was well-known that he was ammassing an army to take out Gondor - how is it SO important that Aragorn looking thru the Palantir makes him pull the trigger to attack?

And the fact remains - Denethor went mad. How and why is just quibbling things (and will highly likely be covered in the EE).

nik - you are furthering the myopic picture of fanboys that people perceive.

 

[reapersaurus]

What saved Middle Earth was Frodo's decision to smack Gollum around some; so much for pity and mercy.

WHAT?!?

Dude, you have gone off the deep end here.

WHO CARES if the movie actually had the balls to SHOW SOMETHING in the scene where the ring is destroyed?
Would you ACTUALLY have rather the film NOT show the cause of Gollum falling off?

Do you realize how many millions of people would have RIGHTFULLY mocked PJ if he'd taken such a weenie way out of plot resolution and drama?