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Lord of the Rings: Did PJ lose the plot?

nikolai said:
And the finale is changed. In the film: Gollum bites the ring from Frodo's finger, Frodo fights with him to regain it, and because of this both fall, with Gollum and the ring ending up in the lava. In the story: it's a lot more complicated and nuanced; but the ring wasn't destroyed because someone slipped and fell whilst having a fight.
A lot more complicated and nuanced? This is what happens in the book: Frodo and Gollum fight, Gollum finally gets the Ring, and he is so happy that he dances with joy and falls into the lava. It's not complicated, and it's not nuanced: the ring was destroyed because someone slipped and fell whilst dancing.

I think it's the perfect example, actually. When Lord of the Rings purists take offense at some of the decisions Peter Jackson had to make, most of the time, they're not defending Tolkien's words, they're defending their own interpretation of it, solidified and polished by years and years of zealous reading.
 

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Storm Raven said:
One could very well argue that PJ added magic to the stories (like the wizard duel between Saruman and Gandalf in LotR, and Saruman's possession of Theoden in TTT).


yeah, i agree. i always pictured gandalf and saruman facing off like psionic battles before.
 

they did remove some of the magic of the World tho...

the Mountain top did not crash down on the Fellowship b/c saruman commanded it in the book. it was the mountain itself who resisted the interlopers. ;)
 

I don't think the Elves at Helms Deep is a minor change, and the drastic changes to Faramir, Theoden, & apparently Denathor are not different visions of those characters, they are different characters in a lot of ways.
 
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diaglo said:
they did remove some of the magic of the World tho...

the Mountain top did not crash down on the Fellowship b/c saruman commanded it in the book. it was the mountain itself who resisted the interlopers. ;)

That's not so much a case or removing magic from the story so much as simply changing the source.

Which menas that the complaint that PJ had some sort of aversion of having magic in a fantasy story still doesn't seem to hold up.
 

Flexor the Mighty! said:
I don't think the Elves at Helms Deep, and the drastic changes to Faramir, Theoden, & apparently Denathor are different visions of those characters, they are different characters in a lot of ways.
Not arguing that any particular story details were not changed. Just saying that the plot was not altered in any significant way, nor was the basic theme of the story.
 

IMO the movies are very good adaptations, and better becuse I don't like JRRT style of writing, but thats not what this thread is about. I was a little surpised that PJ left out:
The fact Frodo and Bilbo share the same birthday, as it would have explained they're connection more. Also, the movies don't do a good job of explaining that Gandalf and the other wizards are not human.
Just little things I would have liked to have seen.
I belive in the book, after Gollum bites Frodo's finger to get the ring, He dances around and falls into the lava, Frodo does not continue to fight him after He looses finger.
 
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I have to say that PJ's movies were probably the best movies I have ever seen. He gave us a visualization of how he perceived the books. I like the way that he portrayed Eomer, and Theodan. Granted there was a few things that he did that I did not care for, but over all I think that he made an incrediable movie.

Also, understand there is alot more people who have not read the books and watched the movie than people who have read the books and watched the movie. He was a director making a movie. Not a director trying to make the Tolkin elitest's happy...
My advice, if you hated the movies because of the changes, dont watch them, read the book instead.
 

re

Endur said:
I am in the "close enough" school.

Was he as close as I wished, no. But he did such an excellent job on the sets that I forgive him completely.

The Shire, Bree, Rivendell, Moria, Lothlorien, Edoras, Helm's Deep, The Gate of Morannon, Minas Tirith, Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol, and Mount Doom were exactly as I envisioned them. Absolutely beautiful.

The only "visual" image I might have a problem with was the "eye". I would have thought only "sensitive" people would be able to actually see it. Rather than a great spotlight hovering in the air above Barad-Dur. And that was a reasonable intepretation, not mine, but fair.

That and the Mumak were too big. They were big in the book, but not as large as in the movies. Tolkien's Oliphaunts were Mastadons, larger than African/Indian elephants, but not much larger. PJ's Oliphaunts were probably three times larger than normal elephants and looked like At-Ats. Tolkien's elephants would not smash a horse and rider flat like a bug if they stepped on him. Tolkien describes the Mumak from the point of a view of a hobbit. For a hobbit, an Elephant would look "as big as a house."

I'm pretty much in this camp, save that I don't forgive him completely for the way he ruined Faramir and Denethor. I forgave him for Theoden because RotK returned quite a bit of the old kings stature.

His visualization of Middle Earth was stunning.

Still don't like many of the changes to the story he and Phillipa made though. Whenever I hear him or Phillipa talking about script changes and how they think they improved on the story makes me want to puke. They improved nothing about LotR. The original story was far better than the BS they decided to add. It just made the characters seem less like the characters all us fans know and love.
 

barsoomcore said:
Not arguing that any particular story details were not changed. Just saying that the plot was not altered in any significant way, nor was the basic theme of the story.

I can see your point of view, but allow me to present a different interpretation of the changes.

The novels have several themes running simultaneously:

1) As you already indicated, the idea that to defeat evil, sacrifices must be made. But the sacrifices were so much greater than the movies indicated.
*The elves knew that victory in the war would result in their fading from Middle-Earth. The few remaining would have a choice of travelling over the sea to Valinor, or staying and fading into legend. Only someone who had read the novels could have understood the depths of their loss while watching the movies.
*The strength and endurance of the people of Gondor, as poignantly shown in the novels, was given very little attention in the movies - Denethor despaired because he fought Sauron for so long, not because he was just some raving madman. What of Beregond, who faced the terrible choice of fighting his kinsmen to save Faramir from Denethor's madness?
*The hobbits also sacrificed, as we read in the Scouring of the Shire, yet that was completely cut from the movies. The whole sense that Frodo was permanently scarred by his ordeal was barely touched upon in the movies.

2) The time of Men.
*The defeat of Sauron beckoned the coming Age of Men, the Fourth Age. While elves (and dwarves) fought in the War of the Ring, they did not do so in alliance with Men. The scene created by PJ et. al. where Haldir leads elves from Lorien to Helm's Deep never occurred in the books. Why not? Because, by this time Men and Elves had become estranged - such an alliance was a thing of the past. And Lorien needed all its strength to resist the armies of Sauron which assaulted the forest kingdom, as the appendices make clear. Thankfully, PJ and company felt no need to add a battalion of dwarves too.
*The transformation of Strider into King Elessar. If Sauron was indeed defeated, then Men would reclaim their birthright, re-uniting the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. The novels do an outstanding job of showing how, through all the trials, Aragorn began to show forth his personal power, truly becoming the rightful King of Gondor. One of the best scenes in the novels is Aragorn leading the rangers (and Gimli and Legolas) into the Paths of Dead, through nothing but the force of his will. The choice was his, after wresting the Palantir of Orthanc from Sauron's control to his own (not Elrond's). The movies did a credible job of showing Aragorn confronting the oathbreakers in the Paths of the Dead, but otherwise he didn't really come into his own until the confrontation before the Black Gate.

3) Power corrupts.
*One important juxtaposition in the novels was the difference between Boromir and Faramir. Boromir was the greatest warrior in Gondor. The bravest. The strongest. The most valiant. But he lacked wisdom. He failed the test of the Ring. Faramir, second only to Boromir in these qualities, possessed a far more valuable trait: true wisdom. When Frodo and Sam were within his power, he did not take them part-way back to Minas Tirith to be presented to his father. He saw more clearly Isildur's Bane must not go to the city, and courageously faced his father's wrath for this choice. The movies showed the fall of Boromir well, they completely messed up Faramir's character.

One added theme in the movies, which does not exist in the novels, is that no one on the side of Good seems able to do anything right unless a member of the Fellowship did it for them. Examples:
*Gandalf telling Aragorn to go with Theoden to Helm's Deep, because the King was "leading his people into a trap" and Aragorn must "save them". Aragorn, Gimli, and the elves from Lorien end up "saving" the Rohirrim. Excuse me? In the novels, the King knew his course was perilous, but it was the best that could be done, and both Gandalf and Aragorn supported it. Further, it was Theoden's idea to charge the orc hosts at dawn, not Aragorn's.
*The hobbits "tricked" Treebeard into getting involved in the War. Huh? They started the ents thinking about Saruman's depradations, but only through their presence with Treebeard. The old ent was too wise to have fallen for anything so idiotic as what the movie showed.
*Pippin starting the fires to summon the Rohirrim to Gondor's aid. Why? Why couldn't PJ and company have left it the way it was in the novels, with Denethor ordering the fires lit? I suppose because they had made such a travesty of his character, it wouldn't have made sense. More likely, it seems part of the theme that only the Fellowship could do anything right.

I do agree that if one reduces the story to its most basic elements (weak little people take powerful artifact to volcano to destroy great evil), then the movies' changes were only cosmetic. If one, however, views the trilogy as more than just the story of the Fellowship, then a great deal was lost. Remember that the trilogy was just a piece of the story of Middle-Earth composed by Tolkien, a story which reached back thousands of years before Frodo. This depth was lost in the movies.

No doubt, some of the changes were necessary due to the different medium (film vs. book), but many cannot be explained by this. While I don't claim to read minds, I can only conclude that PJ et. al. simply couldn't resist making changes they felt would improve the story told by the movies. And in doing so, a great deal of Tolkien's original story was lost.
 

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