Lore Isn't Important

A.
1500 years ago Prince Cerarel, the last ruler of the Nepikya Dynasty perished in the Siege Of Tupeht


::Yawn::

B.
1500 years ago Prince Cerarel, the last ruler of the Nepikya Dynasty in the Siege Of Tupeht
d4 rumors
1. Before the siege ended, his palace was magically sealed. It is rumored to still lie amid the ancient ruins, and is filled with gold
2. Cerarel was thought to be exploring the possibility of lichdom. Perhaps he succeeded?
3. Mysterious red-robed figures have been seen traveling in the region
4. Tupeht was thought to have a portal to a different plane of existence



Ok, now I'm interested!
 

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clearstream

(He, Him)
But I expect it's best when it's kept to a minimum. I think lore is better deployed as a foundation of sorts to base things on, and not as a series of curtain-pulling revelations by the GM.
Is that more about how lore is employed rather than whether it is good to have lore? Those seem separable.

Certain elements of the fiction will simply work better if shared openly and readily whenever they become applicable. Offering an abundance of information for free helps make it feel like the characters are actual denizens of the world of the game. Surprising them at every turn with every bit of information... it's just not the way the world works.
Thinking again of Bushido, I would say the lore was mostly not secret, nor in the form of revelations. More that there was a concrete and interesting world with much to engage with, some of which might not at times be known to some participants. RuneQuest might present another example: Glorantha offers an existing world with much lore. I think that I don't conflate lore with prescripted story.
 

Argyle King

Legend
I think lore is helpful to give a default starting position from which a group of people can come to an imagination-based collaborative storytelling exercise with a shared set of expectations.

In some cases, that can be as simple as understanding what constitutes an "elf" or a "dwarf." It's useful shorthand for

More broadly, it can set genre, game, and group expectations. My default assumptions for a Dragonlance game are different than those for an Eberron game. Even when playing a homebrew setting, choices about what to include or not to include (in addition to the DM communicating expectations) can help me understand what the game will be about.

In a similar way, movie previews can give me some insight into what to expect from a movie.

Can a home group alter what's printed as "official." Certainly, and a group should do what is best for their enjoyment of a product.

At the same time, why bother printing setting materials for different settings if nothing is unique about the respective settings. It's weird to me that contemporary D&D wants to re-publish different settings in a way which makes them all fit more-or-less the same vision for the game.

From a publishing and marketing standpoint, I believe that lore and settings could have been a way to introduce the "modular" design which was talked about during early 5e.

It's possible to do that without specific settings and lore too. I believe there's a happy medium between making dogmatic lore and stripping away the lore to the extent that I'm just doing math with my friends.
 


The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
Broadly I don't think role playing games have a specific point or purpose, even "roleplaying" can simply be instrumental to other desires.

So I don't think discovery is always secondary to the internal world of the character, I have an actor player or two, but I also have players much more focused on everything else.
 

pemerton

Legend
I don't think discovery is always secondary to the internal world of the character, I have an actor player or two, but I also have players much more focused on everything else.
What is the point of RPGing? I think for many if not most people it's not to learn the abstract or impersonal details of an imaginary place. It's to enjoy the exploits and struggles of one's PC.
Exploits and struggles are not confined to the PC's internal life. I think in most RPGing, the internal life of the PC is not all that vivid - it's the external life - the fighting, the sneaking, the looting - that tends to be the focus of play.

But this is nevertheless quite different form learning the abstract or impersonal details of an imaginary place.

I don't think that's what discovery means to most people. I think it is more about exploration and surprise, and it's probably not especially important if what they are discovering is deep lore or intriguing ephemera or the friends they made along the way.
Sure, I'm not saying it's the whole of Discovery, but I do think it can be a meaningful component. But I can obviously only speak directly for myself.
I think that the idea of "discovery" as it relates to the fictional world is best if used sparingly. Players in an RPG are part, but not fully, acting as the audience. And an audience may like to learn things along the way. But is that suitable for play?
If as a player you are trying to learn something through the vehicle of your PC - the classic example is a PC exploring a dungeon, but obviously there are indefinitely many other possibilities - then discovery can be exciting. But as @Reynard says, I don't think it normally matters whether what is discovered is profound or relatively shallow.

In my most recent Torchbearer session, the players via their PCs discovered a throne that lets the one who sits in it project their point of sight out into the world, "flying" about to spy on the landscape. This was literally a discovery, in that they (and their PCs) did not know about this throne until they found it and then experimented with it (during the experimentation one of the players did conjecture its purpose, based on some features of its layout and the room it was in).

This sort of thing can be exciting discovery in a RPG.

But it doesn't depend on lore at all. In the fiction, the throne has a creator, but that creator has a name and two lines of backstory (most of which the players have learned, by having their PCs undertake research). If more backstory is needed of course it can be authored, but that will be in further relationship to what the PCs are doing. I'm not looking for a chance to just drop in some lore that does not bear upon or follow from the players' play of their PCs!

I have GMed games that have been regarded as "lore rich" and "lore driven" by those who play in them and by those who observe them. What I learning GMing those games was that lore works well as a context or framework for play. But it is the players' play of their PCs which is key. This also informs what counts as "good" lore: it should be relevant to play, and potentially be driving of play. This is why I think 4e's default lore is great - it is laden with conflicts that players can easily by into just through building their PCs - whereas, say, genealogy that is not relevant to establishing conflict or driving action (eg JRRT's genealogies of the Kings of Rohan and the Ruling Stewards of Gondor) is in my view pretty optional.
 

If one is running a mystery scenario discovery of setting information will be very important, indeed the primary goal of play. Even when playing Brindlewood Bay you have to take risks to discover clues even if there is not canonical solution to the mystery.
 

Reynard

Legend
If one is running a mystery scenario discovery of setting information will be very important, indeed the primary goal of play. Even when playing Brindlewood Bay you have to take risks to discover clues even if there is not canonical solution to the mystery.
That feels like a broad definition of "setting information." I can run a murder mystery in a mansion at a will reading with almost no setting information aside from whatever tropes the genre brings. What's important in that game is character information.
 

If one is running a mystery scenario discovery of setting information will be very important, indeed the primary goal of play. Even when playing Brindlewood Bay you have to take risks to discover clues even if there is not canonical solution to the mystery.
If one is running a mystery scenario the facts of the scenario need to be discovered. The mystery will likely be nearly impossible to solve without them. Some of those facts might qualify as setting information but I have to think the majority will not. Most setting information will not be relevant to a given mystery scenario.
 

Xamnam

Loves Your Favorite Game
I have GMed games that have been regarded as "lore rich" and "lore driven" by those who play in them and by those who observe them. What I learning GMing those games was that lore works well as a context or framework for play. But it is the players' play of their PCs which is key. This also informs what counts as "good" lore: it should be relevant to play, and potentially be driving of play. This is why I think 4e's default lore is great - it is laden with conflicts that players can easily by into just through building their PCs - whereas, say, genealogy that is not relevant to establishing conflict or driving action (eg JRRT's genealogies of the Kings of Rohan and the Ruling Stewards of Gondor) is in my view pretty optional.
What is considered lore vs plot vs backstory vs etc. is going to vary from DM to DM, but I definitely heavily agree with the bolded.
 

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