stevelabny
Explorer
I've been liking what I've seen of 5E so far and was thinking at the very least, it would be a great introductory RPG. So, just in case, I delved into the Lost Mine. My comments are going to be a little all-over the place but are hopefully going to be rules-light and focus on the adventure. Also, I haven't played jack. This is just going by a read-through. Feel free to tell me that things play out differently in reality.
But first, WHY ARE ELECTRUM PIECES BACK? WHO THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA?
Ahem.
A little background, I've been playing off and on since 1983 - started with Basic Red Box. Played/ran Basic and 1E stuff, barely any 2E, lots of 3E as player and DM - including the "official" WOTC adventures, nothing at all from 4E beyond the PHB. It is possible some of my complaints are callbacks to prior editions that I've just missed along the way and I'll be blaming 5E when the fault lies elsewhere.
The "plot hook" - you are all caravan guards - is eye-rollingly bad, but I think the Personal Goals on the back of the pre-generated characters make up for it and should add some fun. In general, I also think the personality/motivation additions to the character sheet are pretty nifty for encouraging roleplaying. One issue I have is that the cleric and rogue's personal goals both tie into the same subplot and that the rogue's goal probably needs a bit more information like who framed him and why. If one PC wants to go to Tumbletree and kill the dragon, one wants to go to Cragmaw Castle and consecrate the temple, one wants to civilize Phandelver, one wants revenge on the Redbrands, shouldnt the last person want to kill the Orcs at Wyvern Tor or find her family heirloom at the Mine?
I like the overall path of the adventure from ambush, maybe find the goblin lair or go to town and then come back, clear the lair and either proceed to the castle or back to town, pick up sidequests in town, do the side quests in any order and multiple sidequests will point to the mines, finish at the mines. I think it does a decent job of showing potential new DMs how to have multiple options for the PCs to explore, including some they may never bother with, and the possibility of doing some out of order. My personal preference would keep more of them closer to the town to provide an aura of safety, but I guess with full nightly healing that's not too much of an issue. It just seems odd to me that the Lost Mine is closer to town than all of the other locations.
I like the goblin cave being a figure-8 map and adding some verticality to the maps. I like that there's a way to sneak up on the boss that doubles as his escape route, and that his escape route goes through the wolves that PCs may have left behind.
My main problem is the cave, the hideout, the ruins of Tumbletree, Cragmaw Castle and the Lost Mine - combat, combat, combat, combat. Nothing but combat and a lot of it repetitious.
The town is pretty boring, and I hate to say, almost video-gameish. The NPCs have the most bland character traits, no real help for a DM playing them, and seem to exist to have question marks over their head to hand out the quests. This is probably exasperated by the bolded QUESTS and the NPC blurbs "this character has a quest for the party". Just one of those things where a minor presentation choice changes the entire feel.
The Redbrand hideout has a few nice traps, a few nice treasure hiding places and some possibilities. I don't know if I understand the Nothic as a choice for a "different" monster, or as something you can make a truce with,, but maybe that's just me?
We also get Droop, who seems to be this gen's Meepo. (Did 4E have a Meepo variant?) But I don't see Droop becoming a campaign-fixture at all. If the party misses Droop's secret door advice, and spends any time at all exploring Glassstaff's lab, the "boss" is most likely going to escape without any encounter.
The "sidequests" in chapter 3 are a bit of a mess, even though I approve of their existence in theory.
Agatha's Lair is a long way out of the way to get ONE question answered. Especially since its a 55% failure for the best pre-made without advantage or an auto-success if the PCs remember the quest that got them here.
Old Owl Well has another evil NPC for the party to try to make a truce with? Where are all the shades of gray good and neutral characters who you might actually be OK with letting survive and walk around? Most "heroic" PCs that I've played or played with will usually be willing to use diplomacy in many situations, but when dealing with nothics and evil necromancers that's probably not going to happen.
Cragmaw Castle has multiple ways in, and I bet the new everyone-has-spring-attack rules will make combats more fun, yet more dangerous as combatants move through locations during a battle and multiple encounters become one giant combat. The entranceway fight can easily wind up starting with 7 goblins and 4 hobgoblins and then lead into a trap or a lot more goblins, hobgoblins and a grick.
The quarters are tight enough that I can easily see this fight getting super-ugly if the PCs go in the front door and try to move out of being surrounded.
Its also a little tired that Sildar in the goblin cave, Gundren in the castle, and fake "Nunro" in the Mine all get used as a hostage negotiation. Did that really need to be done THREE TIMES in one adventure?
The orc camp at Wyvern Tor seems like a total after-thought. "Eh, we needed to cut this down to 64 pages and have monster stats and other basic rules info, so yeah, 6 orcs, an orc-leader and an ogre... make up your own cave rookie!" Since I feel they were almost trying to make combat areas a bit more dynamic overall, I'm surprised by this one. It really feels like a page count victim.
The ruins of Tumbletree are a mess. Too many buildings with nothing but twig blights and ash zombies. A random cultist encounter for more negotiating-with-evil hijinks, and a stat-less druid who can change into a squirrel and walk you all the way down to Wave Echo Cavern, but apparently has no other abilities that will help you fight twig blights or the dragon! The druid probably needs a "I lost all my abilities but one" disclaimer but in reality, he probably needs to be a functioning NPC to give the PCs any chance here.
If they PCs don't die of boredom searching all the empty buildings and repeatedly fighting the same monsters, there is a TPK awaiting them in the tower. Again, I haven't played it, but I don't see any way that the dragon isn't going to wipe out a bunch of 2nd or 3rd level characters. Using the challenge rating / experience point budget chart from the recent Legends & Lore article, this thing is pretty severely beyond the party's capabilities.
I'd like to make clear that I am a fan of "old-school" character death and save or dies and the like and for PCs learning what they can and can't handle and when to run. However, I always think it should come with some sort of warning that the PCs ignore, or some hideously bad rolling, or some way for the PCs to have out-thought it. This dragon pretty much comes with none of that. The druid warns the PCs to leave before they die, but then asks them to chase away the dragon before he will help them. The dragon tower doesn't have much of a way to get the drop on the dragon, or even split up enough so the entire party isn't sitting ducks for the breath weapon. And this is me assuming that even though he does poison damage, he doesn't actually give the poisoned condition. Having to take the dragon head-on is suicide, there's no text about his personality or any chance of diplomacy beyond "he doesn't want to give up his new home" , there's no NPC allies strong enough to help, and there's no posion-resistance or anti-dragon magic items in the adventure. I think it would still have a high chance of a TPK if the party goes back to it after completing the entire adventure. I don't get it. It is possible I am greatly underestimating the PCs chance of hitting an 18 AC enough to do the 68 points of damage necessary for the dragon to "give up" as written in the book. Maybe if they go all out for one or two rounds, they can get to 68 and the dragon will leave even though 1/2 of the party or more is knocked out on the floor and the others are bloody and battered.
I do like "Hew" the Axe, and the attempt to give magic weapons personality with Hew, Talon and Lightbringer but its too bad that by the time the PCs could hope to acquire it that all the twig blights will be dead.
The mine itself is a bit confusing. Mainly how Nezznar managed to show up long before the PCs, get to the back corner of the map and set up camp, but never found the Forge of Spells, or the right there in plain site "shortcut" from where he's digging for treasure to the room the forge is in. I'm also not sure why he didn't just bring more fodder with him (or summon them) to take care of the ghouls and the flameskull.
The flameskull has a more dangerous spell list than any evil wizard in the adventure. Which, by the way, is a great time to ask why there's multiple evil wizards an no evil anything else. Its just more fodder for "caster supremacy" debates. Nezznar's spell list in particular makes him less of a threat than his allies. As the "final boss" he probably needs to be a 5th level wizard to feel scary, but with 4 giant spiders, 2 bugbears and maybe a doppleganger at his side, he probably doesn't need to be buffed as this one could also get really TPK in a hurry. Especially if Glassstaff returns at just the right moment! Or if someone sets off the un-explained trap in the final room.
So adventure finished, and outside of some possible quick-thinking disguises/bluffs with red cloaks and some hard "oops, you weren't careful and now you're (almost) dead" lessons, there is nothing in the adventure that actually requires thought.
Where are the puzzles and riddles? Where are the mysteries and clues? Where are the hard decisions that matter and don't have an obvious choice? The rules look like they might be OK. But this adventure isn't making me excited to play it. I was really disappointed when I closed the book that had multiple locations and exactly 0 memorable NPCs and 0 puzzles or mysteries or anything to challenge the player.
That said, does anyone have any ideas how to fix it? I feel the "easiest" way is to actually add maps for Wyvern Tor, Agatha's Lair and Old Owl Well adding some of the things I expect and throw in some more one-use magic items - specifically ones that will help against the dragon. And then do everything you can to make that dragon seem frightening.
I'd love to hear more comments.
But first, WHY ARE ELECTRUM PIECES BACK? WHO THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA?
Ahem.
A little background, I've been playing off and on since 1983 - started with Basic Red Box. Played/ran Basic and 1E stuff, barely any 2E, lots of 3E as player and DM - including the "official" WOTC adventures, nothing at all from 4E beyond the PHB. It is possible some of my complaints are callbacks to prior editions that I've just missed along the way and I'll be blaming 5E when the fault lies elsewhere.
The "plot hook" - you are all caravan guards - is eye-rollingly bad, but I think the Personal Goals on the back of the pre-generated characters make up for it and should add some fun. In general, I also think the personality/motivation additions to the character sheet are pretty nifty for encouraging roleplaying. One issue I have is that the cleric and rogue's personal goals both tie into the same subplot and that the rogue's goal probably needs a bit more information like who framed him and why. If one PC wants to go to Tumbletree and kill the dragon, one wants to go to Cragmaw Castle and consecrate the temple, one wants to civilize Phandelver, one wants revenge on the Redbrands, shouldnt the last person want to kill the Orcs at Wyvern Tor or find her family heirloom at the Mine?
I like the overall path of the adventure from ambush, maybe find the goblin lair or go to town and then come back, clear the lair and either proceed to the castle or back to town, pick up sidequests in town, do the side quests in any order and multiple sidequests will point to the mines, finish at the mines. I think it does a decent job of showing potential new DMs how to have multiple options for the PCs to explore, including some they may never bother with, and the possibility of doing some out of order. My personal preference would keep more of them closer to the town to provide an aura of safety, but I guess with full nightly healing that's not too much of an issue. It just seems odd to me that the Lost Mine is closer to town than all of the other locations.
I like the goblin cave being a figure-8 map and adding some verticality to the maps. I like that there's a way to sneak up on the boss that doubles as his escape route, and that his escape route goes through the wolves that PCs may have left behind.
My main problem is the cave, the hideout, the ruins of Tumbletree, Cragmaw Castle and the Lost Mine - combat, combat, combat, combat. Nothing but combat and a lot of it repetitious.
The town is pretty boring, and I hate to say, almost video-gameish. The NPCs have the most bland character traits, no real help for a DM playing them, and seem to exist to have question marks over their head to hand out the quests. This is probably exasperated by the bolded QUESTS and the NPC blurbs "this character has a quest for the party". Just one of those things where a minor presentation choice changes the entire feel.
The Redbrand hideout has a few nice traps, a few nice treasure hiding places and some possibilities. I don't know if I understand the Nothic as a choice for a "different" monster, or as something you can make a truce with,, but maybe that's just me?
We also get Droop, who seems to be this gen's Meepo. (Did 4E have a Meepo variant?) But I don't see Droop becoming a campaign-fixture at all. If the party misses Droop's secret door advice, and spends any time at all exploring Glassstaff's lab, the "boss" is most likely going to escape without any encounter.
The "sidequests" in chapter 3 are a bit of a mess, even though I approve of their existence in theory.
Agatha's Lair is a long way out of the way to get ONE question answered. Especially since its a 55% failure for the best pre-made without advantage or an auto-success if the PCs remember the quest that got them here.
Old Owl Well has another evil NPC for the party to try to make a truce with? Where are all the shades of gray good and neutral characters who you might actually be OK with letting survive and walk around? Most "heroic" PCs that I've played or played with will usually be willing to use diplomacy in many situations, but when dealing with nothics and evil necromancers that's probably not going to happen.
Cragmaw Castle has multiple ways in, and I bet the new everyone-has-spring-attack rules will make combats more fun, yet more dangerous as combatants move through locations during a battle and multiple encounters become one giant combat. The entranceway fight can easily wind up starting with 7 goblins and 4 hobgoblins and then lead into a trap or a lot more goblins, hobgoblins and a grick.
The quarters are tight enough that I can easily see this fight getting super-ugly if the PCs go in the front door and try to move out of being surrounded.
Its also a little tired that Sildar in the goblin cave, Gundren in the castle, and fake "Nunro" in the Mine all get used as a hostage negotiation. Did that really need to be done THREE TIMES in one adventure?
The orc camp at Wyvern Tor seems like a total after-thought. "Eh, we needed to cut this down to 64 pages and have monster stats and other basic rules info, so yeah, 6 orcs, an orc-leader and an ogre... make up your own cave rookie!" Since I feel they were almost trying to make combat areas a bit more dynamic overall, I'm surprised by this one. It really feels like a page count victim.
The ruins of Tumbletree are a mess. Too many buildings with nothing but twig blights and ash zombies. A random cultist encounter for more negotiating-with-evil hijinks, and a stat-less druid who can change into a squirrel and walk you all the way down to Wave Echo Cavern, but apparently has no other abilities that will help you fight twig blights or the dragon! The druid probably needs a "I lost all my abilities but one" disclaimer but in reality, he probably needs to be a functioning NPC to give the PCs any chance here.
If they PCs don't die of boredom searching all the empty buildings and repeatedly fighting the same monsters, there is a TPK awaiting them in the tower. Again, I haven't played it, but I don't see any way that the dragon isn't going to wipe out a bunch of 2nd or 3rd level characters. Using the challenge rating / experience point budget chart from the recent Legends & Lore article, this thing is pretty severely beyond the party's capabilities.
I'd like to make clear that I am a fan of "old-school" character death and save or dies and the like and for PCs learning what they can and can't handle and when to run. However, I always think it should come with some sort of warning that the PCs ignore, or some hideously bad rolling, or some way for the PCs to have out-thought it. This dragon pretty much comes with none of that. The druid warns the PCs to leave before they die, but then asks them to chase away the dragon before he will help them. The dragon tower doesn't have much of a way to get the drop on the dragon, or even split up enough so the entire party isn't sitting ducks for the breath weapon. And this is me assuming that even though he does poison damage, he doesn't actually give the poisoned condition. Having to take the dragon head-on is suicide, there's no text about his personality or any chance of diplomacy beyond "he doesn't want to give up his new home" , there's no NPC allies strong enough to help, and there's no posion-resistance or anti-dragon magic items in the adventure. I think it would still have a high chance of a TPK if the party goes back to it after completing the entire adventure. I don't get it. It is possible I am greatly underestimating the PCs chance of hitting an 18 AC enough to do the 68 points of damage necessary for the dragon to "give up" as written in the book. Maybe if they go all out for one or two rounds, they can get to 68 and the dragon will leave even though 1/2 of the party or more is knocked out on the floor and the others are bloody and battered.
I do like "Hew" the Axe, and the attempt to give magic weapons personality with Hew, Talon and Lightbringer but its too bad that by the time the PCs could hope to acquire it that all the twig blights will be dead.
The mine itself is a bit confusing. Mainly how Nezznar managed to show up long before the PCs, get to the back corner of the map and set up camp, but never found the Forge of Spells, or the right there in plain site "shortcut" from where he's digging for treasure to the room the forge is in. I'm also not sure why he didn't just bring more fodder with him (or summon them) to take care of the ghouls and the flameskull.
The flameskull has a more dangerous spell list than any evil wizard in the adventure. Which, by the way, is a great time to ask why there's multiple evil wizards an no evil anything else. Its just more fodder for "caster supremacy" debates. Nezznar's spell list in particular makes him less of a threat than his allies. As the "final boss" he probably needs to be a 5th level wizard to feel scary, but with 4 giant spiders, 2 bugbears and maybe a doppleganger at his side, he probably doesn't need to be buffed as this one could also get really TPK in a hurry. Especially if Glassstaff returns at just the right moment! Or if someone sets off the un-explained trap in the final room.
So adventure finished, and outside of some possible quick-thinking disguises/bluffs with red cloaks and some hard "oops, you weren't careful and now you're (almost) dead" lessons, there is nothing in the adventure that actually requires thought.
Where are the puzzles and riddles? Where are the mysteries and clues? Where are the hard decisions that matter and don't have an obvious choice? The rules look like they might be OK. But this adventure isn't making me excited to play it. I was really disappointed when I closed the book that had multiple locations and exactly 0 memorable NPCs and 0 puzzles or mysteries or anything to challenge the player.
That said, does anyone have any ideas how to fix it? I feel the "easiest" way is to actually add maps for Wyvern Tor, Agatha's Lair and Old Owl Well adding some of the things I expect and throw in some more one-use magic items - specifically ones that will help against the dragon. And then do everything you can to make that dragon seem frightening.
I'd love to hear more comments.
