D&D 5E Lost Mine of Phandelver - comments and complaints after read-through (spoilers)

[Gargoyle]

Seriously thinking of retooling this adventure to make the dragon into the BBEG.

 

[stevelabny]

I'm pretty sure they put it into the adventure to show how it isn't necessary to always have balanced encounters in D&D (harkening back to old school). They are combating criticism about CR bubbles wherein PCs would seem to always go to areas in the world where all the monsters were precisely calibrated to offer them a balanced challenge (mmo type instances set for character level).

For 5e, I think they want people to see how story will dictate what the PCs encounter rather than CR. Players should get better at evaluating encounters through PC knowledge and trial/error, and they should learn how to avoid some combats or how to extract themselves from situations when those situations turn sour.

Personally, I love that philosophy. To me, it makes the game world seem more organic and less contrived.

I like that philosophy in general. My problem here is specifically - the folk hero has "get rid of the dragon" as his personal goal. If we're giving inspiration as a game mechanic for players role-playing, the folk hero isn't going to want to NOT go after the dragon. The druid first tries to chase the party off before they get killed, then asks them to fight the dragon. So there's a wise, old NPC familiar with the situation that is thinking they have a chance to defeat it. I think these are meta-game pointers telling the PCs to try it. I think if the Starter Set DM is also a 1st timer, he won't realize what the PCs are getting into.

And if they walk into that room looking for a fight, the dragon will hover and breathe and have a decent chance of getting a TPK in round 1. No chance for the party to realize their error and run.

The encounter either needs more tactics to explain why the dragon doesn't breathe instantly and gives PCs time to re-assess and escape or information about what happens if you try diplomacy like some of the other boss fights or to have the nudges like the personal goal removed.

Without those changes, I think this encounter becomes a trap, and the exact type of thing that players who complained about older edition DMs would use as an example.

 

[Rhenny]

I like that philosophy in general. My problem here is specifically - the folk hero has "get rid of the dragon" as his personal goal. If we're giving inspiration as a game mechanic for players role-playing, the folk hero isn't going to want to NOT go after the dragon. The druid first tries to chase the party off before they get killed, then asks them to fight the dragon. So there's a wise, old NPC familiar with the situation that is thinking they have a chance to defeat it. I think these are meta-game pointers telling the PCs to try it. I think if the Starter Set DM is also a 1st timer, he won't realize what the PCs are getting into.

And if they walk into that room looking for a fight, the dragon will hover and breathe and have a decent chance of getting a TPK in round 1. No chance for the party to realize their error and run.

The encounter either needs more tactics to explain why the dragon doesn't breathe instantly and gives PCs time to re-assess and escape or information about what happens if you try diplomacy like some of the other boss fights or to have the nudges like the personal goal removed.

Without those changes, I think this encounter becomes a trap, and the exact type of thing that players who complained about older edition DMs would use as an example.

I see your point. I guess the Fighter personal goal should have a caveat. His goal is to slay the dragon when he has become powerful enough.

Now that you mention it, when the player at our table introduced that Fighter as his PC and said that he was after a dragon, my character (the wizard) warned him that dragons were not to be trifled with.

 

[77IM]

Great analysis of the adventure!

Personally, I disagree on many things. For example, I love how the material is presented; what may seem bland and bare-bones to some seems clear and direct to me. The corny "caravan guard" opening hook is a classic homage, not a cop-ot. And I love all the encounter advice around negotiation and the monster morale system. The adventure structure is very good too.

I do agree about how grindy some of the dungeons are, notably Thundertree and portions of Cragmaw Castle. And yeah, Venomfan should be named Tipikay. More puzzles would have been nice.

Some things, like Nezzenar's behavior in Wave Echo Cave, seemed weird at first but maybe in play it wouldn't seem weird at all because of the player's limited perspective.

Overall I thought this was a pretty good adventure and a great starting point for new groups (aside from the green dragon).

 

[Nemio]

I see your point. I guess the Fighter personal goal should have a caveat. His goal is to slay the dragon when he has become powerful enough.

Now that you mention it, when the player at our table introduced that Fighter as his PC and said that he was after a dragon, my character (the wizard) warned him that dragons were not to be trifled with.

The remarks from stevelabny are my thoughts exactly.
What makes it worse are the flaws of the folkhero PC, so if they RP him correctly he will be too arrogant to believe failure is an option.

Not only that, the players themselves might think it is possible.
They will probably have the videogame reaction of "Well, if it's there then it means that we can beat it."
I know that they should change this feeling but waiting for a TPK and then saying "Well, now you've learned." isn't going to make for happy players I think.

The dragon will probably kill them in round one so they won't have an oppurtunity to flee.
And even if they could then I think it would be a big letdown for the player of the Folkhero PC to be the only one with a goal that he/she can't really accomplish.

Ugh, this one is going to give me a lot of headache I'm afraid.

Any tips for a new DM?
How do you let your players know in general that they shouldn't really fight a powerful monster (yet) ?

 

[nerfherder]

Any tips for a new DM?
How do you let your players know in general that they shouldn't really fight a powerful monster (yet) ?

Ask them "Are you really sure your character wants to do that?" .

"Really?"

"OK - do your characters have wills?"

 

[pukunui]

The devs don't seem to think it's a problem. Didn't Greg Bilsland joke about how they were calling the noble fighter "the PC with a deathwish" during the Starter Set unboxing video?

 

[KarinsDad]

Any tips for a new DM?
How do you let your players know in general that they shouldn't really fight a powerful monster (yet) ?

I'm planning on halving its hit dice and halving its breath weapon damage (and making the save easier) and lowering it's claw/claw/bite attacks.

Then it's going to be a normal battle. A 6th level Dragon in 4E was large, so an 8 HD Dragon in 5E can also be large. Very little changes except the XP handed out.

Course, it's a Dragon. I rarely have my Dragons do melee. They do hit and run tactics, strafing the PCs with breath weapon, grabbing one and flying it 40 feet up in the air and dropping him, winging around the entire village so the the PC archers and spell casters lose track of it, etc. They always fight dirty.


It's also a Dragon. If PCs flatter it, give it some treasure, etc., they might be able to not fight it. Big if, but it's happened before in my games.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The remarks from stevelabny are my thoughts exactly.
What makes it worse are the flaws of the folkhero PC, so if they RP him correctly he will be too arrogant to believe failure is an option.

Not only that, the players themselves might think it is possible.
They will probably have the videogame reaction of "Well, if it's there then it means that we can beat it."
I know that they should change this feeling but waiting for a TPK and then saying "Well, now you've learned." isn't going to make for happy players I think.

The dragon will probably kill them in round one so they won't have an oppurtunity to flee.
And even if they could then I think it would be a big letdown for the player of the Folkhero PC to be the only one with a goal that he/she can't really accomplish.

Ugh, this one is going to give me a lot of headache I'm afraid.

Any tips for a new DM?
How do you let your players know in general that they shouldn't really fight a powerful monster (yet) ?

It's a tricky one. Normally you don't funnel the PCs towards a fight with a powerful monster, particularly one that good RP dictates that they should fight! That's generally considered pretty bad DM'ing. Specifically it's "Gotcha!"-style DMing, which tends to make newer players think that:

A) The DM is a divot of the worst kind.

and/or

B) The game sucks.*

You'd drop hints about how powerful it was, show what it had done, make it clear that more powerful people had tried and failed to take it on, and make it very hard to get to it - perhaps putting "barely survivable"-type encounters in the way, to indicate that they should think twice.

Finally, if you aren't looking for a "Gotcha!"-style TPK ("Teach you to roleplay your characters correctly and not metagame, SUCKERS!" - Great lesson there, WotC! ), you'd probably want to open with a very clear description of it's size/power, AND have it start talking before the PCs do.

I mean, Green Dragons love lying, love cross-questioning people, love deceit in general, and manipulating people, and don't really get off on direct fighting. It doesn't even have to make complete sense for them to do it - they enjoy the process of lying and manipulating, even if it doesn't get them anywhere. Hopefully they can lead the PCs down the garden path, then fly off, rather than getting into a fight. If the Fighter who is keen to kill them starts with them, you might have them laugh it off initially (it's not like he's going to seriously injure said dragon), and give his friends a chance to restrain him.

If you have done all that, and make it clear that the Dragon WILL eat them for breakfast, and they still want to fight, well, thems the breaks! If only certain PCs do, though, I'd kill them off and not the rest, and have the dragon be all "Let this be lesson to you and now, for saving you, you must do me this favour...".



* = Yeah, really, not a good lesson for the first adventure - but a fairly common one with WotC-produced first adventures - certainly KotS was enough to make me question whether 4E was any good! I eventually worked out that it was the adventure that blew goats, and that I was going to have to write my own if I wanted this to work, so I did!

 

[The Hitcher]

The remarks from stevelabny are my thoughts exactly.
What makes it worse are the flaws of the folkhero PC, so if they RP him correctly he will be too arrogant to believe failure is an option.

Not only that, the players themselves might think it is possible.
They will probably have the videogame reaction of "Well, if it's there then it means that we can beat it."
I know that they should change this feeling but waiting for a TPK and then saying "Well, now you've learned." isn't going to make for happy players I think.

The dragon will probably kill them in round one so they won't have an oppurtunity to flee.
And even if they could then I think it would be a big letdown for the player of the Folkhero PC to be the only one with a goal that he/she can't really accomplish.

Ugh, this one is going to give me a lot of headache I'm afraid.

Any tips for a new DM?
How do you let your players know in general that they shouldn't really fight a powerful monster (yet) ?

Seems like the most fun character to play, from my perspective. Nothing like a good doomed hero.

Here's how I'd handle it: when you're handing out the characters, say this:

"This guy really wants to take out a dragon, and is pretty deluded about the reality of that situation. Be warned: if you do meet a dragon, it will probably kill you. Anyone think this guy sounds fun to play?". Probably one of them will say they do. If not, don't use that character.

Or, as a total alternative: don't do any of the above. Keep the dragon on the hush hush, and let them walk into the trap. Assuming they get wiped (which they might not - stranger things have happened), then say:

"And now you know not to meddle with dragons. Anyone keen to reload your saved game?". Let them rewind the encounter and make a different choice. The Starter Set is supposed to be a learning experience. They've now learned their lesson, so where's the harm in undoing it?