Love the Game, Hate the Baggage

[Filcher]

Reading the Necro apology thread, GlammerD called out 4E as "the most damaging, hence worst" edition of the game.

For what it is worth, I wish there was a way to separate 4E the Game from 4E the Marketing Fiasco.

I've been playing D&D since I was 8 years old with Mentzer Red Box set. D&D rocks and has defined a lot of my free time and my professional career, for which I am really thankful. All that and I love the latest incarnation. But I want to be free to love 4E and not have to defend Wizard's roll out.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

To be fair not all of it is roll out, to many of us it is no longer the game we have played for ages, it's not an edition switch, it's a whole new game. Just using names from the old one.

Now if you like 4e, well my friend more power to you, always play them game you enjoy, but for other folks it's just not that game anymore.

 

[billd91]

But I want to be free to love 4E and not have to defend Wizard's roll out.

So do so. It's OK to love the product, hate (or just dislike) the marketing. You don't have to defend it, in fact, you can criticize it or refuse to talk about it while talking about what you like about 4e. This place would be a lot better if people would unlink the topics completely, recognize that criticism or promotion of either is not necessarily edition warring, and just let people talk about what they want to talk about - pro or con.

Personally, I don't much like 4e, nor the marketing of it. I disagree with GlammerD's assessment of it as damaging - though I do think of it as the "sore thumb" edition in that it really sticks out as being different from all other editions. Whether or not that has a significant effect on how it is viewed in the long term once more editions have come out is hard to predict.

 

[tyrlaan]

Personally, I don't much like 4e, nor the marketing of it. I disagree with GlammerD's assessment of it as damaging - though I do think of it as the "sore thumb" edition in that it really sticks out as being different from all other editions. Whether or not that has a significant effect on how it is viewed in the long term once more editions have come out is hard to predict.

Kind of like Super Mario Brothers 2 right?

It is indeed vastly different and if someone likes it or not is a personal taste thing. I just wish more folks could wrap their heads around the concept of more tolerant/less argumentative conversations like this one.

 

[carmachu]

For what it is worth, I wish there was a way to separate 4E the Game from 4E the Marketing Fiasco.

Unfortunately, thats not going to happen. Too much bad blood from WotC's going towards and after launch.

But have fun with 4e.

 

[jaerdaph]

I think 4e went a little too far with the changes a little too soon. We had two editions of AD&D over 20+ years (1e and 2e). Now we have two (some say two and a half) editions in less than ten years (3e(, 3.5e) and 4e). I think WotC may have pushed a little too hard to attract new customers (D&D "virgins" as well as ones they "lost" when 3e - or even 2e - came out), and that pushed away a some existing 3e customers, probably more than they had hoped.

I tried 4e and didn't care for it at all. Others have tried 4e and love it.
And that's okay.

D&D is more than just a brand name. I run a Microlite20 game (an OGL-derived game) for my young nephews - they call it "D&D". They look at my Pathfinder stuff and call it "D&D". They look at a map I'm drawing in Campaign Cartographer 3 and ask if it's for "D&D". They look at my Star Trek RPG books and ask, "Is this game like 'D&D'?" The suits might not like brand name dilution, but who cares? At the end of the day, new blood is entering the hobby and learning to love roleplaying. And that's why I could never "hate" 4e, even if I don't play it. Even when WotC makes some boneheaded decisions.

So go ahead, ask me for a Kleenex when all I have are Puffs. I'll still give you a tissue.

 

[Dausuul]

I agree with the "love the game, hate the baggage" sentiment, although in my case the baggage has to do with certain elements in the game that grind my personal gears. As it happens, I have had the exact same attitude with respect to every edition of D&D ever.

We had two editions of AD&D over 20+ years (1e and 2e). Now we have two (some say two and a half) editions in less than ten years (3e(, 3.5e) and 4e).

Now this is rather disingenuous. If you're going to count the lifespan of 1E plus the lifespan of 2E, you can't then compare it to the lifespan of 3E plus eighteen months of 4E.

1E lasted for 12 years. 2E lasted for 11 years. 3E lasted for 8 years. While 3E didn't get quite as much time as its predecessors, it had a good run. Moreover, for the last three years of 2E, the game was semi-moribund due to TSR's collapse.

(The 3.5 half-edition was a lame-ass money grab, I will grant you that much.)

 

[Barastrondo]

People hold on to things. I can't really count the number of times I've had someone tell me (often to my face) that they don't like something I worked on for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the product my writers and I put out. It was someone else, on some other line or in marketing, that made them decide "Everyone at White Wolf sucks." Sometimes the people would tell me this after the offending party had been gone from the company for years.

While I never really fault people for getting angry at things, it being a basic right and all, I can't honestly admit the experience hasn't hardened my heart somewhat. Game companies just aren't as big as megalithic corporations. If five people out of thirty pull off some marketing maneuver that goes poorly or put something controversial in a book, I have a hard time taking seriously any argument that starts with lumping the other twenty-five in with the first five. It isn't really the most professional approach, but I tune stuff like that out. If someone isn't interested in finding out the difference between "people who made the decision you hate" and "people who disagreed with the decision you hate but work at the company anyway," nothing I can say will get through to them... and their opinions aren't really going to do me any good.

So yeah, I see it in the D&D community, and I sympathize with the folks putting out the game. They're doing some neat and well-designed stuff, but some folks (a minority, I hope, but kind of a vocal one) aren't interested in giving it a fair shake. That first impression will be with them forever. It's not terribly fair, but yes, it is how it works.

 

[Desdichado]

I don't think 4e's marketing was a fiasco, and no amount of squeeky wheel diatribes from faceless online usernames is going to convince me otherwise.

4es marketing did the job it was supposed to, and it successfully sold the new edition. There are a few really angry (and pitiable) fans of older editions who trot out bitter tears every opportunity they get, but don't confuse the volume of their histrionics for widespread sentiment.

 

[Crothian]

But I want to be free to love 4E and not have to defend Wizard's roll out.

Who do you need to defend the game to? Most the people who attack Wizards on line aren't going to have their mind changed. They aren't looking for a discussion they just want to complain. Honestly, I defend the game to people i respect and like. I feel no need to defend it against the yahoos who troll and attack.