Love the Game, Hate the Marketing

[S'mon]

You are going to buy or not buy based on the product and the reviews of your peers.

I think that's true of me, but surely there are people here who've already decided to buy it?

In my case, if there were a quickstart version of 4e with a price point similar to Savage Worlds, which costs $10, I'd buy it out of curiosity and to see if I like it. At around $90, I'm guessing ca £50-£60 here in UK, I'll wait to see the reviews, maybe play in someone else's game, and see if it's worth buying into. I'm probably more likely to stick with C&C as my core game but it might be worth trying as a new game rather than as the continuation of D&D.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Scott,

I'm glad to hear that there's more to come from WoTC marketing. But I don't think you can really make a case that the sheer volume of posts here negate the points I made when I started this thread.

For example, do you actually believe that it is 'laughable' to make the claim that terminating the print versions of Dungeon/Dragon at this point was a mistake?

I am quite certain that the vast majority of people, on this board at least, would disagree with you.

I wish you the best.

Ken

Aaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhh!

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ,9, 10

OK, I think I can type now.

Criticizing the marketing of a 4e, on a message board dedicated to 4e, with 15 pages of posts (some with over 15,000 views), with 10s of thousands of participants, most of whom are talking favorably about a product that is not even out, is laughable.

There are actual marketing professionals behind this (like myself) and we have not even made a dent in the very large budget for advertising, public relations, and promotions yet.

It is the end of January, the big product release is in June, marketing will really kick in in March/April and will run for months.

end rant

 

[Raven Crowking]

Aaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhh!

If it makes any difference to you, I see real improvement in the marketing strategy between initial announcement and now. Talking to the major 3rd party players and getting them on board, and letting some respected playtesters say positive things about the game was, IMHO, a good decision.

Yes, there is some negative feedback, but if (for example) Ari wasn't pretty much in the 90% liking it camp, I don't think his posts (even positive comments) would sound like he was. And a lot of folks around here respect Ari's opinion (including me).

The two big (gargantuan, IMHO) gaffes still out there are (1) the Gleemax TOU (which, if tied into the DI subscriptions & gaming table, mean that I will never, ever, ever, use them, even if they were otherwise the best thing since sliced bread) and (2) the DI itself, which deserves some full-time support.

Other than that, in terms of information flow and responsiveness, I think WotC's marketting has gone from Zero to Hero. I have to admit that I am now actually interested in at least seeing the system, which I wasn't even remotely interested in earlier. That is a major change in perspective, so you must be doing something right.


RC

 

[Roland55]

It is the end of January, the big product release is in June, marketing will really kick in in March/April and will run for months.

Rant or no rant, that sounds reasonable to me. There is plenty of time left.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Personally I've had no problem with any of the 4e marketing. Didn't see anything wrong with the videos. I didn't think they were funny but I have very high standards for comedy.

Did you see the announcement video from GenCon? Because that wasn't trying to be funny, and it looked like they made the announcement ill prepared. It doesn't sound to me like you saw that one, as it wasn't trying to be funny (compared to the Tiefling/Gnome one)

 

[RigaMortus2]

A Google search revealed these number of entries for each word

"Cool" 81,400,000
"Sweet" 37,600,000
"Awesome" 20,100,000
"Bitchin" 1,990,000
"Dope" 1,190,000
"Phat" 1,179,000

Words that beat out "cool" :

"A" 1,150,000,000
"The" 920,000,000
"I" 705,000,000
"E" 639,000,000

Other popular words"

"Cat" 64,900,000
"God" 50,500,000
"Dog" 43,400,000
"Jesus" 23,300,000


Clearly we are under using vowels, pets, and the lords name but seem to be on par with use of positive adjectives

Just wait until later this month when they release the stat block for EIA, The Dog God and his Cat familiar Jesus.

 

[KB9JMQ]

Just wait until later this month when they release the stat block for EIA, The Dog God and his Cat familiar Jesus.

I hope this comes out right since my monitor is covered in drink.
ha ha ha ha ha

 

[Scott_Rouse]

Since I started the 'Former 4E Doubter now has High Hopes' thread, I thought I'd balance things out a bit.

I am really looking forward to playing 4E. But my thoughts are in spite of, not due to , WoTC marketing efforts and marketing-related decisions.

Everything about the 4E launch has been ham-fisted.

So we are clear on the definition I would guess this will suffice with emphasis on "a bungling performance"

Adj. 1. ham-fisted - lacking physical movement skills, especially with the hands; "a bumbling mechanic"; "a bungling performance"; "ham-handed governmental interference"; "could scarcely empty a scuttle of ashes, so handless was the poor creature"- Mary H. Vorse
bumbling, butterfingered, ham-handed, heavy-handed, handless, bungling, left-handed
maladroit - not adroit; "a maladroit movement of his hand caused the car to swerve"; "a maladroit translation"; "maladroit propaganda"

The lousy D&D promotion videos

Like this with almost 30,000 views and a 4 out of 5 rating on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72LQ6W2W_TU

Or this with almost 25,000 views and a 4 out of 5 on Youtube?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqFPujRZWo&feature=related

Granted these are not huge by youtube standards but they reached a significant number of people in my business.

Or are you just editorializing on the content and comedy (or lack there of) of the videos?

The over-use of the word 'cool'.

See my previous post.

Cool is a commonly used word among 30-40 somethings and happens to communicate our opinion and excitement about 4e. I think it is more effective and less dorky than "good", "great", "super", "neat", "excellent", "rad" and many other positive adjectives.

The killing of Dungeon and Dragon prior to having an acceptable replacement.

I am adding this from your later post:

For example, do you actually believe that it is 'laughable' to make the claim that terminating the print versions of Dungeon/Dragon at this point was a mistake?

We have said this time and time again in posts made after the magazines announcement and I don't want to dig up that old body but since you asked here it is again. The end of the magazines in print is certainly a loss as a marketing vehicle but the decision was not made purely on this factor. The decision was carefully considered and made for business reasons (read looking at the magazine business holistically) and not based on one factor like marketing potential. Magazines way bigger than Dungeon or Dragon are dropping off like flies because as it turns out, unless you are the huge (over 200K in circ) it is a crappy business model.

So in short the answer is: no it was not a mistake. Given the situation we were in with timing of contracts, nature of contracts, timing of 4e, etc we handled it the best we could. Given different circumstances I would loved to have handled it differently but we were having to optimize the situation we were in and not in a position to work with the optimal situation.

And now we have playtesters and freelancers given permission to speak of 4E, but only in a positive way. The negative PR from this move , I think, must far outweigh any benefit to WoTC.

Show me any marketing or PR person in this situation who would grant outsiders an opportunity to spread negative press and I'll show you someone soon to be out of a job. When given the opportunity to control your message you do just that. Call it spin, huckster, or what ever but "staying on message" is a pretty basic tenant of marketing. There will be a time and place for 3rd party reviews both good and bad but now is not that time. As a marketer you hope the reviews are all good but the chips will fall as they may.

In the long run, I suppose none of this will matter, because eventually the game will sink or swim based on the strength of the rules and their ongoing support from WoTC.

True. At a basic level marketing consists of the 4Ps: Product, Price, Promotion, and Placement.

Without a product people want to buy not much else matters.

But really, what's going on here?

Ken

You are taking about a product that is not out yet.

I smell marketing at work.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Like this with almost 30,000 views and a 4 out of 5 rating on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72LQ6W2W_TU

Or this with almost 25,000 views and a 4 out of 5 on Youtube?

Rouse, you do know that 4chan-grade stupidity is VERY common on youtube?

The communauty can be... less said, the better.

 

[SteveC]

Aaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhh!

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ,9, 10

OK, I think I can type now.

Criticizing the marketing of a 4e, on a message board dedicated to 4e, with 15 pages of posts (some with over 15,000 views), with 10s of thousands of participants, most of whom are talking favorably about a product that is not even out, is laughable.

There are actual marketing professionals behind this (like myself) and we have not even made a dent in the very large budget for advertising, public relations, and promotions yet.

It is the end of January, the big product release is in June, marketing will really kick in in March/April and will run for months.

end rant

Scott,
Let me first start off and say that I was certainly NOT intending to cause offense or make you count to 10. I don't honestly consider you to be a marketing person, rather a gamer who is in the position of working on marketing the new Edition. I deal with a lot of people who do marketing in my job, and this is REALLY meant as a complement to you!

And I'll add to that: the positive things that I have seen about the marketing for 4E have DIRECTLY come from the work you've done. You've managed to keep your cool, even in the face of being asked to wear a puffy shirt to talk about 4E.

...But I'm still going to stand by what I wrote: what I have seen for marketing for 4E has been utterly chaotic. Let me give an example: I really liked the two promo books for 4E that have come out, but the marketing for them ended up making a lot of the customers for the product angry. I think the art in both books is fantastic, especially Worlds and Monsters: it has some of the best artwork I've ever seen for D&D. I'd say it's worth picking up just for the art. You'd have a tough time knowing that considering how it was marketed.

During the last few months I have had a real rollercoaster effect with the marketing for 4E: something good would come out, only to be followed by several frustrating and annoying comments and posts. That would usually be followed by some comments by you or Mike Mearls or Rodney Thompson, and everything would calm down. Instead of a buildup, you were seeing something like a sine curve.

I'm in the target market for the new game. I'm going to D&D Experience. I have the game on preorder. I'm excited about it, and am willing to give it a serious benefit of the doubt based on the talents of the designers involved. All of that is in spite of, and not because of, much of the marketing that's happened so far.

When the real marketing push hits I'll comment again, and there's nothing in this world I'd like more than to have 4E launch in an even more impressive fashion than 3E did. I'll be very happy to give credit where credit is due!

If you're at D&D Experience, I'll stop by and say hi, just please, don't wear the puffy shirt.

--Steve