D&D 5E (2014) Low CRs and "Boring" Monsters: Ogre

[Xeviat]

Ogres are perfectly in-line with what the monster creation guidelines in the DMG lay out as the normal process of determining CR - which is incredibly easy to do, even while not matching the math portion precisely, because part of the process is to adjust final CR up or down based on play-testing information.

And since an ogre deals enough damage in one hit to put a 1st level character out of the fight with a single hit, or outright kill a 1st level character with a critical hit, it's not at all surprising that the final CR was bumped upward from the CR 1 the math comes out to for a final result of CR 2.

Doesn't the Bugbear do more damage than the ogre with its surprise ability? By your assessment, the ogre could have its defenses adjusted (Moar HP!) and still be "balanced", since he defensive side of its CR is so bad.

For my own use, I added the following things to the ogre:

Reckless Attack
Multiattack: two great club or javelin
Club Sweep: Targets adjacent creatures in a 15 ft "line" (so three squares adjacent to each other and adjacent to the ogre) for Dex save DC 14 or take 2d8+4 bludgeoning and be knocked back 10 feet; save for half and no knockback.

I'm starting to think that big giant things should Attack Reflex instead of AC, since your armor and shield isn't going to do too much absorbing the impact of a giant's big ol' weapon.


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[trentonjoe]

Do the abilities you guys tack on add to the XP value of the creature for your heroes? Bump the CR by 1-2?


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It depends. Generally speaking if it's only one minor ability I don't bump the CPC ER. If you tack on a couple abilities especially if he grants a another attack like a bonus action pack that I will raise this the CR


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[Satyrn]

Do the abilities you guys tack on add to the XP value of the creature for your heroes? Bump the CR by 1-2?


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When I do it, no. I do it to add flavor and fun to the fight, not to add to the difficulty. I don't spam the abilities if they prove effective, for example, and I try to do things that are CR appropriate so I don't see the added versatility being significant enough to change XP awards.

And then there's always the option of tacking on bonus XP afterwards if you feel like you actually made the fight significantly harder. I did that once or twice. (Although it's now just theoretical for me, since I stopped tracking XP a little while ago).

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Doesn't the Bugbear do more damage than the ogre with its surprise ability?

That is irrelevant to whether or not the ogre is at the "right" CR while being CR 2. It is also not something that should be changing the CR of the bugbear, which is why they are CR 1 even with the surprise feature, because surprise is not guaranteed, nor even actually possible, without the DM insisting that it is so.

By your assessment, the ogre could have its defenses adjusted (Moar HP!) and still be "balanced", since he defensive side of its CR is so bad.

That is potentially true. I wouldn't consider it a certainty because more staying power might mean enough increased opportunity to take character(s) out of the fight that the CR would actually need to be bumped upward again, since characters of those lowest few levels are rather fragile when the hits they are trying to endure average as high as the ogre's do. And I'm certainly not going to run a large enough sample of combats to check any changes.

 

[Grazzt]

By your assessment, the ogre could have its defenses adjusted (Moar HP!) and still be "balanced", since he defensive side of its CR is so bad.

I'm starting to think that big giant things should Attack Reflex instead of AC, since your armor and shield isn't going to do too much absorbing the impact of a giant's big ol' weapon.

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Using WotC's monster design rules, you could increase the ogre's hp before it's CR bumped up. And "reflex" is already factored into AC since it's an overall score of how well the character avoids being hit (through armor, speed, dodging, Dex, luck, whatever).

 

[flametitan]

Doesn't the Bugbear do more damage than the ogre with its surprise ability? By your assessment, the ogre could have its defenses adjusted (Moar HP!) and still be "balanced", since he defensive side of its CR is so bad.

The bugbear's ability can only be triggered once in a combat, requires surprise (which requires the bugbear to first beat the players in a Stealth v perception roll, and then beat the PCs in initiative), and only has a +4 to hit. Not to mention half the hit points, meaning that after the first round ends, if the PCs have a spell, then the bugbear's almost dead by its next turn, and can't use its ability.

Meanwhile with the Ogre's hit point pool, even if it's "below par," it's going to take a while to burn through it with 1st level combat abilities, giving it more time to use its +6 to hit and drop a PC.

 

[Ath'kethin]

I actually am writing that book. I have about 80, it's just a matter of organizing and writing them out.

It's my New Years resolution to actually finish



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Keep us posted. Assuming it's done well, that's the kind of DMs Guild product I'd actually buy.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Keep us posted. Assuming it's done well, that's the kind of DMs Guild product I'd actually buy.

Yes, especially if it pre-computes the CR adjustments for you in a little appendix or something.

(I know, CR doesn't matter, but I use it for awarding XP and it's nice not to feel like I'm somehow cheating my players out of XP by eyeballing CR adjustments incorrectly.)

 

[guachi]

Do the abilities you guys tack on add to the XP value of the creature for your heroes? Bump the CR by 1-2?


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The ogre is underpowered for a CR2 creature. So you could easily give it a special attack or more defense without needing to raise its CR.

 

[Harzel]

By your assessment, the ogre could have its defenses adjusted (Moar HP!) and still be "balanced", since he defensive side of its CR is so bad.

Be very careful about using the Monster Statistics by CR table in the DMG as a guideline for adjusting HP upward, particularly for low level monsters. For monsters with a defensive CR of 1/8 or 1/4, combined with a higher offensive CR, it is possible to increase its HP by 2x or 3x without changing the final ('average') CR computed using the guidelines. I made this mistake recently. In this stat range at least, the CR guidelines appear to be quite broken. Or maybe I'm just missing something.