• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

I concur that Bigby's Hand and Mordenkainen's Sword are not worth memorizing in their current form, and that if your proposal were implemented in the 5E spellbook, offensive wizard options would become attractive instead of pointless traps. (It would also differentiate Bigby's Hand/Mordy's Sword from Conjure Elemental/Animate Object.) This is a good rule proposal/house rule.

Bigby's Hand is good. In conjunction with a cantrip, you can do some pretty good damage. 4d8 for an average 18 points a hit along with your fire bolt for 13 points a hit. You'll average 31 points a round for 10 rounds. You would be close to on par with the martials even with three attacks with some nifty utility effects possible.

Mordenkainen's Sword I agree is not so good. It's only damage.

I might push it as a house rule. I want to wait a little longer to see how higher level spells work. I usually like to run through a game system to 16 to 20 to get a good feel for it before I start implementing house rules. If things continue as they are, I'll probably push to house rule 5E with the bonus action offense spells rule.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Bigby's Hand can actually be great against dragons - use the grapple to halt their movement then drag them where you want. Legendary Resistance doesn't apply to contests...
 

Bigby's Hand can actually be great against dragons - use the grapple to halt their movement then drag them where you want. Legendary Resistance doesn't apply to contests...

Exactly. I've been wanting to use it against dragons. I just picked it up. I'm going to give it a try. See if I can maybe slow it down and restrain it, so the martials can attack it without fly. It if works, then I won't have to cast fly on them all the damn time. Dragons are pretty strong. We'll see if they can beat a 26 strength contest.
 

I substituted a more common magic item for a rare one.

How often do you actually roll a Wand of the War Mage on the random treasure tables? Even if it is "more common," unless it is in fact actually common, it makes sense to exclude it from a general analysis of legendary creatures.

My sense is that a Wand of the War mage may become factor in something like 5-10% of all L1-20 campaigns.

Your effectively going to die if you don't make an archer specialist against flying creatures that are powerful. What I'm saying is that a player should not be limited to making a dex-based character because it is the far, far superior option due to other limitations in the game. Right now having run with both melee martials and ranged archer martials, the ranged archer martials are vastly superior even if they have to take an occasional AoO to move out of melee range to not have disadvantage.

I agree that melee specialists are pretty lame in 5E. The combination of 5E mobility rules, short ranges on monster spells/magical effects, the Archery style, Sharpshooter feat, and feats/spells for enhancing mobility make ranged skirmishing clearly a dominant strategy compared to melee. For the most part, anyone who makes a melee fighter in 5E is an idiot, or at the very least is playing against the grain (probably unwittingly due to not really grokking the 5E ruleset). For example, you've talked a lot about fighting adult White Dragons--with a melee party, the chances of multiple characters getting caught in the breath weapon are quite high because your forces all have to concentrate in order to engage it simultaneously. With a ranged party, you can spread out so that the dragon only ever hits one guy at a time (who might even make his saving throw!). The relatively minor damage boost of GWF Greatswords over longbows doesn't even begin to compensate for the much greater disadvantages of a melee profile--and that's before you even bring Fly/concentration requirements into play.

5E isn't a good edition for people who enjoy melee fighters. We like to say, "you can't go wrong in 5E with any build," and to an extent that's true, but if you have a DM who likes to metagame and make Int 8 foes like white dragons extremely cunning and tactical and he likes to throw CR 13 White Dragons at level 8 parties in violation of the nominal encounter guidelines, you've exceeded the parameters for which "any build" is appropriate. If he just stuck to CR 8 foes for level 8 parties, even melee-oriented builds could probably do okay, although they should still carry and use longbows as appropriate (because why not?).
 


Bigby's Hand can actually be great against dragons - use the grapple to halt their movement then drag them where you want. Legendary Resistance doesn't apply to contests...

It's an interesting idea... but it's only as durable as the Hand's HP. In a ranged party it has a good chance of usefully absorbing 40-50 HP or so worth of melee attacks/tail slaps (delaying the dragon for a full round). I'm not so sure it would be useful to Celtavian's party though, especially because it does require concentration in RAW.

Still, good point about contests. You can make it even better if there's a warlock to Hex the dragon's Str.
 

Well ideally the Hand would try to pull a dragon into range of a ground-based PC who can take over the grapple before it's killed. Or a Sentinel user.
 

I agree about melee fighters though. Even monk, Eagle Totem and Tempest Cleric don't get their flight till fairly high level.

Sentinel is hugely important
 
Last edited:

The combination of 5E mobility rules, short ranges on monster spells/magical effects, the Archery style, Sharpshooter feat, and feats/spells for enhancing mobility make ranged skirmishing clearly a dominant strategy compared to melee. For the most part, anyone who makes a melee fighter in 5E is an idiot, or at the very least is playing against the grain (probably unwittingly due to not really grokking the 5E ruleset).

Sounds pretty harsh.

We have a battle master fighter with the heavy armor mastery and sentinel feats, and with parry. I do not consider the player an idiot, nor is he playing against the grain. His PC has soaked up tons of damage that would have repeatedly and seriously depleted many other party resources.

Is any given PC capable of being the best option or even a good option in all scenarios? No. There are scenarios (like surrounded by foes) where your vaunted "ranged skirmisher" would be toast. Yes, he could use his rapier, but big deal. His big guns are neutralized.

I can understand thinking that in some scenarios, one style is better than another, but this concept that ranged skirmishers are dominant over melee specialists POV is totally inaccurate. Each is better in certain circumstances.
 

Bigby's Hand is good. In conjunction with a cantrip, you can do some pretty good damage. 4d8 for an average 18 points a hit along with your fire bolt for 13 points a hit. You'll average 31 points a round for 10 rounds. You would be close to on par with the martials even with three attacks with some nifty utility effects possible.

Mordenkainen's Sword I agree is not so good. It's only damage.

I might push it as a house rule. I want to wait a little longer to see how higher level spells work. I usually like to run through a game system to 16 to 20 to get a good feel for it before I start implementing house rules. If things continue as they are, I'll probably push to house rule 5E with the bonus action offense spells rule.

The problem with Bigby's Hand is that it is outclassed by the competition. Conjure Minor Elemental is cheaper and longer-lasting, and (assuming 8 mud mephits) gives you roughly 3 to 4 times the HP and more damage (8d6 + 8 at +3 instead of 4d8 at +7-ish; expected damage of 8 mud mephits against an AC of 18 like an Adult White Dragon is 10.8 vs. only 9 for Bigby's Hand, and it only gets better for more typical ACs or if someone lands a Faerie Fire/Web on the dragon) plus a better action economy and some death burst effects/breath weapons (useless against dragons but useful against other things).

Without the house rule in place, you would just cast Conjure Minor Elementals when you first enter Oyavigatton (sp? the white dragon lair), thus making the whole dungeon easier including fights with trolls/frogs/etc., and also use them to fight the dragon, instead of just getting 1 minute worth of Bigby's Hand during the fight. You can even use the mephits to scout ahead. It's a dominant option without the house rule.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top