D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[Shadowdweller00]

Sure, but the concentration limiter on suggestion has a greater effect than the one on phantasmal force, if phantasmal force does almost anything.

"The dragon is covered in flaming magma, which restrains, blinds, and damages it. Now I walk out of range while the party kills it." is very different from

If it seems like I'm advocating for Phantasmal Force to impose some sort of unbeatable status impediment then for the record: I'm not. I don't think a caster who chooses something silly is likely to get it to work. "I create the illusion of a tiny pink ribbon that slashes the creature's guts open and poisons them...because.". I'd tend to think an immediate reaction when apparently immersed in phantasmal magma, for instance, would be to run out of the area and/or scrape it from the creature's eyes. Appropriate action...gets enemy beyond impediment. A phantasmal iron cage or manacles around a limb might elicit something else. I don't honestly expect an enemy to be trapped for more than a round or two.

"The dragon thinks it should cower in the corner while we deal with... the real threat in this combat? I guess. Well, nobody damage it until we're ready."

So the party, near death at the time of the casting, massacres the thing's minions, stuffs a potion down the unconscious cleric's throat, heals up, and prepares to deal with the probably recharged breath weapon. This isn't remotely a weak effect.

 

[Celtavian]

Unlike, say, the Suggestion spell. A second level spell which can make a monster do otherwise illogical things at otherwise inappropriate times for hours on end with a failed wisdom save...

A suggestion is a short sentence with clear instructions. I require this at the table. If someone says "Stand still until I say otherwise", that is not a suggestion but a command. Thus the spell does not work. The thing suggested must be something the creature can accomplish and must be worded carefully to ensure it would spend the necessary time on it.

So not as easy to use as you state unless your DM is very kind.

 

[Celtavian]

Yes, concentration is indeed a big limiter. However, the spell was brought up in the first place for comparison with the power level of Phantasmal Force. Which is also a concentration spell.

Why would you think the suggestion spell has those kinds of paramters? You cannot make a creature cower with suggestion, that is a fear effect. You cannot gain such advantages with suggestion. If you tell it to stand in the corner, that is a command, not a suggestion. I require that you word the spell as a suggestion.

For example, "Is it not your turn to clean the floor? Perhaps you should obtain some water, soap, and a mop, and clean the floor it. It is awfully dirty." I require wording as a suggestion.

I'll have to look at the spell. I thought it had some part that made it hard to use such as an ally being able to hit you to wake you up similar to sleep.

 

[KarinsDad]

Why would you think the suggestion spell has those kinds of paramters? You cannot make a creature cower with suggestion, that is a fear effect. You cannot gain such advantages with suggestion. If you tell it to stand in the corner, that is a command, not a suggestion. I require that you word the spell as a suggestion.

For example, "Is it not your turn to clean the floor? Perhaps you should obtain some water, soap, and a mop, and clean the floor it. It is awfully dirty." I require wording as a suggestion.

This is a house rule though. Many DMs allow commands to be suggestions. Being persnickety about it doesn't make it the rule. I play the game to have fun, not for the DM to be the word smith police.

I wouldn't require a player to sit there and come up with the exact wording in a suggestion that allows his PC to do the exact same thing that a command would do. That's wasting time at the game for no gain.


Note: I do the same thing with roleplaying. Just because a given player is not Shakespeare does not mean that I am going to penalize him for his lack of real world oratory skills.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Why would you think the suggestion spell has those kinds of paramters? You cannot make a creature cower with suggestion, that is a fear effect. You cannot gain such advantages with suggestion. If you tell it to stand in the corner, that is a command, not a suggestion. I require that you word the spell as a suggestion.

For example, "Is it not your turn to clean the floor? Perhaps you should obtain some water, soap, and a mop, and clean the floor it. It is awfully dirty." I require wording as a suggestion.

I'll have to look at the spell. I thought it had some part that made it hard to use such as an ally being able to hit you to wake you up similar to sleep.

I believe you are mistaken. I invite you to examine the spell description - I might suggest paying particular attention to such language as "You suggest a course of action" and the particular examples used. The spell has essentially always been a "command" spell. (Barring perhaps the 4e aberration. I don't recall how 4e handled the spell, if at all). It traditionally occupied a place between Charm Person, which made an enemy your ally but provided limited control over their behavior, and Domination, which gave the caster exacting and sustained control over the victim. Examples in previous editions implied that the spell could be used to alter a creature's perceptions....to make them think that a pool of acid was actually water, for example. Suggestion does have SOME limitations - it must be communicated in a language the enemy understands, must be worded in a way that sounds kind of reasonable, cannot be directly suicidal, does not work on enemies that are immune to charm effects, breaks when the victim is damaged by the caster or the caster's apparent allies, and of course requires concentration. It does NOT break from anything like slapping from allies of the victim.

 

[keterys]

The 4e suggestion spell let the wizard roll his Arcana in place of a Diplomacy check. It was a pretty elegant way of doing it, avoiding the whole "This is an awful lot like domination but with less strings attached" problem.

 

[KarinsDad]

The 4e suggestion spell let the wizard roll his Arcana in place of a Diplomacy check. It was a pretty elegant way of doing it, avoiding the whole "This is an awful lot like domination but with less strings attached" problem.

Meh. I can use one skill instead of another and the results of the skill check is totally DM dependent.

It doesn't sound like magic. Magic should be a bit more special than that. Emulating mundane stuff seems less unique and magical. Influencing someone to do something for an extended period of time that they normally would not do (like 3E or 5E Suggestion)? That's magical.

 

[keterys]

It is perhaps worth note that it was only a cantrip in 4E, and you could use it much more frequently. There's a reason it has less of an effect. 4E skill use was also a bit more... organized... than many other editions of D&D.

Personally, I'm increasingly not thrilled with the 5E treatment where spells are highly limited resources that don't really change things too much. I think I'd personally lean towards them being less limited , so you could more reliably compare to the other parts of the system that almost universally eschew limited use. But there are benefits for either direction.

 

[Erechel]

I'm a DM, and one of the players has an elf wizard. She literally rocks the ground, as almost ever she casts Magic Missile as a 2d level spell against the enemies' leader, usually taking 4d4+4 damage (average 12, but isn't unheard of 20 damage) without any defense from the enemy. She also has high intelligence, so she uses some spell attacks with +6, and doing more significant damage with some fluff. In two turns she usually takes down the average leader of enemies, forcing a moral check. She also has an altered version of Grease (freezing ground), which she uses discretionally, Scorching Ray and Fog Cloud.
I admit that I don't use a lot of big enemies, I prefer some big ass soldiers (usually shield+chainmail, leaders with splint mail and shield, average 20-30 hp) as the campaign isn't set in a very magical world. The Paladin does more damage with a hit and divine smithing (he has 19 strenght), but it isn't guaranteed, as he has to make an attack and spend a spell slot: magic missile is an automatic 12 ranged damage (14 is more common, though), that can split. Aside that more often than not, the wizard acts first (as she has the highest dexterity of the party- but she could be a Variant human with the Alert feat and still being the first in the round).
She is an evoker, so she can cast spells like Burning Hands or Thunderwave from behind their friends without harming them. She trusts in the Paladin and the monk to keep her out of danger (wich isn't always the case, but still). And yes, she always makes the battles go faster. And remember the Arcane recovery? She could cast Armor mage in the morning, study for an hour, and recover the spended spell slot.
And the cantrips... using them creatively, for example, burning the oiled ground for some effect, or burning tents, flags, piles of dirt or horse's crap (it's very flammable), freezing, slowing the pace of the enemies and much more. No, I wouldn't say that a wizard is weak, nor that she does little damage. Remember, 12 free damage on average, much more with a save or an attack.

 

[Celtavian]

I believe you are mistaken. I invite you to examine the spell description - I might suggest paying particular attention to such language as "You suggest a course of action" and the particular examples used. The spell has essentially always been a "command" spell. (Barring perhaps the 4e aberration. I don't recall how 4e handled the spell, if at all). It traditionally occupied a place between Charm Person, which made an enemy your ally but provided limited control over their behavior, and Domination, which gave the caster exacting and sustained control over the victim. Examples in previous editions implied that the spell could be used to alter a creature's perceptions....to make them think that a pool of acid was actually water, for example. Suggestion does have SOME limitations - it must be communicated in a language the enemy understands, must be worded in a way that sounds kind of reasonable, cannot be directly suicidal, does not work on enemies that are immune to charm effects, breaks when the victim is damaged by the caster or the caster's apparent allies, and of course requires concentration. It does NOT break from anything like slapping from allies of the victim.

I did look at the spell description. Suggestion does not allow you to impose any other conditions on the subject such as frightened, incapacitated, or anything of the like.

Not sure why Phantasmal Force would be able to create the Restrained condition based on an intelligence check. I would as a DM allow a strength check at best as the dragon deals with any impediment to its wings in a manner that it is accustomed to doing. You cannot create unbreakable wings. You have no way of convincing a dragon that the chains are unbreakable or something it can't still fly with it on their wings using their strength. I would not allow you to ground a dragon with an intelligence save unless it also missed its strength check to free itself from the restrained condition. I would allow you to force the check, which would cause it to use an action to do so. It would have to do that on a round by round basis to stay flying while the phantasmal force was active. You could not stop it from flying away to figure out how to break the chains.

That's how I would run it.