D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[HarrisonF]

If Phantasmal Force had a save every round like many spells, then yes, I would think that it could be mobile and used to distract a dragon. But as written, forcing a dragon to use up an action to get the equivalent of a save versus a second level spell is overpowered compared to every other second level spell in the book.

In our game, we are playing that if you are taking an action and directly, physically, interacting with the illusion, then you are very likely going to get a saving throw to notice it is fake. This is the "take an action to investigate" part of the spell description. In the end, it basically ends up costing an action to get the save, which is roughly how the save-ends type spells work at this level (ie. hold person wastes the targets round and then gives a save at the end of it, same with Tasha's). In some cases, the creature can just ignore the effect, so it is a bit worse, but PF gets added flexibility and targets a different save to make up for it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Anyone think that 90% of the complaints in this thread would go away if we just dropped legendary resistance from three auto-saves to one? Because I'm thinking of doing just that.

That makes it exceedingly easy for monks to stunlock vampires. Beware and be advised.

 

[Celtavian]

And that interaction gives the creature an intelligence check, not a strength check. The creature might be using its strength to try to break out of the chains, but the check is an intelligence check that the chains are not holding it like real chains would. There is absolutely no reason to waste time at the gaming table giving the creature a strength check that is worthless and not applicable to the game or the spell.

The spell has saves and checks as it states that it does, not additional ones.

Not how I'm going to handle it. You handle it how you want. I feel illusions shouldn't be able to do things like restrain a creature with an intelligence check. Otherwise, phantasmal force takes on a power level that is no present in the spell, if you would like to get technical. Nowhere does it say or indicate that you can use phantasmal force to restrain a creature. It says you can do some minor damage. It still flies right through the solid bridge thinking it fell off. Thus it could keep flying with the phantasmal chain on its wings thinking the phantasmal chain stretches with its wings. Would you prefer the DM disallow your illusionary restraint from working? A DM can easily justify that considering the spell does not allow restraint.

Same as an ogre could bash through a phantasmal wall. If it is affecting him, then the wall would still be there and the hole would suddenly close. Not stopping from moving forward at all.

Those are also very reasonable interpretations of the spell given the parameters and examples given.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Not how I'm going to handle it. You handle it how you want. I feel illusions shouldn't be able to do things like restrain a creature with an intelligence check. Otherwise, phantasmal force takes on a power level that is no present in the spell, if you would like to get technical.

Unlike, say, the Suggestion spell. A second level spell which can make a monster do otherwise illogical things at otherwise inappropriate times for hours on end with a failed wisdom save...

 

[keterys]

Unlike, say, the Suggestion spell. A second level spell which can make a monster do otherwise illogical things at otherwise inappropriate times for hours on end with a failed wisdom save...

I dropped suggestion on my warlock after I ran into the second DM (of two) who effectively wouldn't let me cast it outside of combat (the act of casting triggered an initiative roll kinda thing). It's got some serious limitations in combat, so it's mostly good for making someone leave the combat there.

So yeah, it's got limitations compared to "anything you can think of". Not that I'm weighing in one way or another on how restricted or not Phantasmal Force is. That's probably another spell that will see high variation from table to table. Or even combat to combat "Sure, it takes out all the mooks" "The dragon's not going to fall for that"

 

[Shadowdweller00]

So yeah, it's got limitations compared to "anything you can think of". Not that I'm weighing in one way or another on how restricted or not Phantasmal Force is. That's probably another spell that will see high variation from table to table. Or even combat to combat "Sure, it takes out all the mooks" "The dragon's not going to fall for that"

Every single spell in the game, up to and including Wish, has more limitations than "anything you can think of". Suggestion works just fine for shutting down creatures in combat (provided you have a language in common) as long as the rest of the party co-operates. "These adventurers are too tough for you. I suggest you cower in a corner until they go away." Or alternately "Fighting these puny creatures is beneath you. Lie down and growl at them until they scurry off in fear."

 

[Eirikrautha]

Every single spell in the game, up to and including Wish, has more limitations than "anything you can think of". Suggestion works just fine for shutting down creatures in combat (provided you have a language in common) as long as the rest of the party co-operates. "These adventurers are too tough for you. I suggest you cower in a corner until they go away." Or alternately "Fighting these puny creatures is beneath you. Lie down and growl at them until they scurry off in fear."

Heh. I turned a pretty routine encounter in the Mines of Phandelver into a nail-biter, simply by suggesting the party's best damage-dealer "get as far away from here as you can, as fast as you can." Three rounds later, he finally saves and starts running back. Just simple uses like that can make all the difference in a fight.

 

[keterys]

Concentration is one of the big limitations on Suggestion; it's one reason that sending someone away is often a better plan than cowering nearby. Less chance of getting hit for splash damage, less chance to do something harmful once Concentration is inevitably broken. Cause yeah, DMs round here do target casters based on whether they're concentrating on spells.

In the case of my warlock, the Concentration requirement on a power I want to use for potentially hours at a time and inability for the spell to grow into higher level spell slots were already big limiters, but I figured it was worth the cost if I could occasionally use it to do something cool in a more Interaction scene. Especially if I think I might be able to rest sometime soon afterwards. Once I couldn't, it wasn't worth the bother. Maybe once I have more free spells known I'll get it back. Probably not. I suspect the added problem is that I'm playing that character through published adventures (Hoard, Adventurer's League) and the DMs may not be comfortable going enough off the rails.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Concentration is one of the big limitations on Suggestion; it's one reason that sending someone away is often a better plan than cowering nearby. Less chance of getting hit for splash damage, less chance to do something harmful once Concentration is inevitably broken. Cause yeah, DMs round here do target casters based on whether they're concentrating on spells.

Yes, concentration is indeed a big limiter. However, the spell was brought up in the first place for comparison with the power level of Phantasmal Force. Which is also a concentration spell.

 

[keterys]

Yes, concentration is indeed a big limiter. However, the spell was brought up in the first place for comparison with the power level of Phantasmal Force. Which is also a concentration spell.

Sure, but the concentration limiter on suggestion has a greater effect than the one on phantasmal force, if phantasmal force does almost anything.

"The dragon is covered in flaming magma, which restrains, blinds, and damages it. Now I walk out of range while the party kills it." is very different from

"The dragon thinks it should cower in the corner while we deal with... the real threat in this combat? I guess. Well, nobody damage it until we're ready."