D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[Erechel]

This is what such a situation would look like more likely.

Wizard has Owl familiar out ahead scouting, who more than likely spots the Fighter. If the Fighter is in heavy armour he's going to be easier to spot, if he is more stealthy he is going to be easier to kill, but given your Fighter only has 14 Dex, he's not likely a stealth build. Alternatively he may have some alarm rituals up which alert him to the presence of danger.

Wizard hides and ambushes the Fighter gaining surprise, since he has a much better scout than him and knows he is coming. He can stay out of line of sight from the Fighter and use his owl familiar as his eyes until the Fighter gets close. In this instance if he rolled well in initiative, two magic missiles are likely to kill the Fighter before he can react. If not? He can use expeditious retreat to stay away from the Fighter, help action from his owl familiar, and wear the Fighter down with firebolts from afar. The fighter can attempt to use a ranged weapon, but with 15 AC from Mage Armour and advantage from his owl, the Wizard is going to win a ranged duel.

This is assuming he is even going to attack. He could learn about this Fighter, retreat, and fight him in more favourable conditions after following him for some time with his familiar. After all that's what Wizard's are ALL about. Maybe he uses minor illusion to lure the Fighter close to the lair of a dangerous creature, maybe he does many other things other than getting into a straight up fight in a 1v1 battle, after all he has at least 16 intelligence.

If you're playing Wizards and NOT using all your tools at your disposal to learn, prepare, and act accordingly, you're doing it wrong.

Exactly. Dave, you are amazing.

 

[KarinsDad]

This is what such a situation would look like more likely.

Wizard has Owl familiar out ahead scouting, who more than likely spots the Fighter. If the Fighter is in heavy armour he's going to be easier to spot, if he is more stealthy he is going to be easier to kill, but given your Fighter only has 14 Dex, he's not likely a stealth build. Alternatively he may have some alarm rituals up which alert him to the presence of danger.

Wizard hides and ambushes the Fighter gaining surprise, since he has a much better scout than him and knows he is coming. He can stay out of line of sight from the Fighter and use his owl familiar as his eyes until the Fighter gets close. In this instance if he rolled well in initiative, two magic missiles are likely to kill the Fighter before he can react. If not? He can use expeditious retreat to stay away from the Fighter, help action from his owl familiar, and wear the Fighter down with firebolts from afar. The fighter can attempt to use a ranged weapon, but with 15 AC from Mage Armour and advantage from his owl, he is going to win a ranged duel.

This is assuming he is even going to attack. He could learn about this Fighter, retreat, and fight him in more favourable conditions after following him for some time with his familiar. After all that's what Wizard's are ALL about. Maybe he uses minor illusion to lure the Fighter close to the lair of a dangerous creature, maybe he does many other things other than getting into a straight up fight in a 1v1 battle, after all he has at least 16 intelligence.

If you're playing Wizards and NOT using all your tools at your disposal to learn, prepare, and act accordingly, you're doing it wrong.

But the Fighter does not spot the Owl and shoot it out of the sky? The Owl knows what direction to go scout in and always spots the Fighter?

Come on Dave. Yes, one can contrive any rationalization to get the outcome one desires. You know that.


You also had your imaginary wizard cast Mage Armor, two Magic Missiles, and Expeditious Retreat. That's 4 spells. Wizards only get 3. And how does the Wizard guarantee that he will meet the Fighter within 7 hours after the short rest he used to have Arcane Recovery get him back his Mage Armor? How does he know that the fighter will not attack him during his short rest when he only has one first level spell available?

You can contrive any situation you want. It means squat. Fighter vs. Wizard duels are stupid. One can always create a situation where the one has the advantage over the other. The fighter hangs out in a deep cave and if the wizard or the owl enter it, bam. Surprise arrow to the face. Of course the side who sets up an ambush is going to win at first level. You can contrive either side to do that. Duh.

 

[DaveDash]

But the Fighter does not spot the Owl and shoot it out of the sky? The Owl knows what direction to go scout in and always spots the Fighter?

Come on Dave. Yes, one can contrive any rationalization to get the outcome one desires. You know that.


You also had your imaginary wizard cast Mage Armor, two Magic Missiles, and Expeditious Retreat. That's 4 spells. Wizards only get 3. And how does the Wizard guarantee that he will meet the Fighter within 7 hours after the short rest he used to have Arcane Recovery get him back his Mage Armor? How does he know that the fighter will not attack him during his short rest when he only has one first level spell available?

You can contrive any situation you want. It means squat. Fighter vs. Wizard duels are stupid. One can always create a situation where the one has the advantage over the other. The fighter hangs out in a deep cave and if the wizard or the owl enter it, bam. Surprise arrow to the face. Of course the side who sets up an ambush is going to win at first level. You can contrive either side to do that. Duh.

Err how would the Fighter even KNOW the owl (or whatever creature the Wizard deemed suitable) is a familiar? Massive stretch there. In your completely contrived little combat scenario it's presumed they are either heading towards each other, or one is heading towards the other. Once combat has begun, yes, the Fighter could shoot the owl, but he will waste at least one round doing so.

I was not giving the Wizard four spells, I was illustrating numerous ways the Wizard can easily deal with a Fighter, ways you've never even considered, because all you seem to think about is "Wizard in combat casting cantrips SUCKS". One way would be surprise + magic missile to death, another way would be expeditious retreat, using full cover, the eyes of the familiar, and cantrips. Another way is to not take the Fighter on in 1v1 combat at all and use your flexible cantrips such as minor illusion to your advantage, or even another way is to wait until you reach level 3, in which you have the "I win" spell against any Fighter (hold person).

I agree with you that situations can be dreamed up to no end, naturally, but you'll find the Wizard actually has the advantage in most of these scenarios due to the fact he is a much more flexible class than the Fighter due to his massive spell list, assuming you know how to actually play one.

In one of our low level games there have been so many times when we've commented "Man I wish we had a Wizard in the group" due to scouting with the familiar, ritual casting, etc. Low level encounters are about creativity and versatility when you're a Wizard. Distracting Splitting foes with minor illusion, manipulating objects with mage hand, gaining intel through charm person, scouting ahead and knowing what's ahead giving your party the recon they need to be able to effectively prepare.
Going 1 v 1 with creatures that have a good chance of killing you at the lower levels is silly without being prepared, and the Wizard is one of the best classes at gaining info and adapting. You don't seem to get this, so it's no wonder your level 4 Abjurer met his end too soon.

Anyway this thread has gone on for 65 pages now. Low level Wizards don't suck that much, and even when they do suck those low levels are over quickly. You're just arguing for the sake of it.

 

[Erechel]

Why shooting an owl? Only for a metagame standing point? The bird can even hide or fly out of reach. You were the first that compare fighter and wizard. Why don't make them fight? There is plenty of plot reasons you can imagine. And the wizard have the upper hand on surprises, with rituals and familiars. After all he IS a better scout. Your post is stupid, whinning and overall sad, as you were the first complaining because you are useless as a player in combat situations. Every character could make himself useful, but you are prone to search for optimization excuses to justify your inability. Of course a fighter is a better frontliner... he is supposed to be. But the mage is more versatile, and can make a big difference in a fight at any level. And you keep missing the point, the spells are useful, and when they fuel out, you still have cantrips to back up. Tactics, a bit of luck, and situation make a character succesful. Bad luck on the dice affects anyone, but the mage overall don't depend as much on it as other classes, as he makes his own.

 

[KarinsDad]

Err how would the Fighter even KNOW the owl (or whatever creature the Wizard deemed suitable) is a familiar? Massive stretch there. In your completely contrived little combat scenario it's presumed they are either heading towards each other, or one is heading towards the other. Once combat has begun, yes, the Fighter could shoot the owl, but he will waste at least one round doing so.

I was not giving the Wizard four spells, I was illustrating numerous ways the Wizard can easily deal with a Fighter, ways you've never even considered, because all you seem to think about is "Wizard in combat casting cantrips SUCKS".

I considered them and discarded them. Expeditious Retreat vs. a bow is not smart. Even Expeditious Retreat vs. a bow and the wizard goes behind total cover is not very good. Fighter readies an arrow for when he spots the wizard. If wizard comes out to attack, he's shot at (the ready action happens after the movement).

Way ahead of you there chief. You are also assuming that they are out in the wilds somewhere where an Owl might be a normal occurrence. How about in a desert? In a town? In a cave? In a dungeon? Owls stand out in those circumstances and the fighter might just go hide and set up an ambush.

One way would be surprise + magic missile to death, another way would be expeditious retreat, using full cover, the eyes of the familiar, and cantrips. Another way is to not take the Fighter on in 1v1 combat at all and use your flexible cantrips such as minor illusion to your advantage, or even another way is to wait until you reach level 3, in which you have the "I win" spell against any Fighter (hold person).

Hold Person is "I win"? Let's see. Wizard wins init. Casts Hold Person. Fighter saves or does not save. At end of Fighters turn, Fighter saves or does not save. In order to gain any advantage, the Fighter would have to miss both saves. It can easily be a waste of the wizard's spell. Seriously? You consider that smart?

Even with a Wis modifier of 0, that's a 60% chance of success times a 60% chance of success or 36% chance of success of advantage wizard, 40% chance of nothing happens. If the fighter has a +1, it drops to 30% chance of success of advantage wizard, 45% chance of nothing happens. Either way, the odds are better for the fighter than the wizard.

Suggestion is stronger than Hold Person.

What happens if wizard loses init? Fighter comes up and attacks, AC 15 with Mage Armor, two handed weapon fighter hits 55% of the time for 11 points (or more with a critical). Wizard could be half damaged. If he (can) Shield it, he's now down a first level and about to cast a second level spell that (maybe) has a 36% chance of success for at least one round. Course, if Mage Armor is not yet up for the day... No doubt about it, the higher the level, the more the odds favor a fresh wizard over a fresh fighter.

I agree with you that situations can be dreamed up to no end, naturally, but you'll find the Wizard actually has the advantage in most of these scenarios due to the fact he is a much more flexible class than the Fighter due to his massive spell list, assuming you know how to actually play one.

The entire combat is skewed towards the wizard from the start. How do you guarantee that the wizard and/or the fighter have not already been in one or two combats that day? Wizards get 2 or 3 spells. Fighters get one heal. These type of comparisons are always dumb because both PCs would be in an adventuring group. Maybe the fighter happens upon the wizard while the wizard is camping. Maybe the wizard happens upon the wizard while the wizard is camping. Maybe they bump into each other unexpected in a tavern.

Anyway this thread has gone on for 65 pages now. Low level Wizards don't suck that much, and even when they do suck those low levels are over quickly. You're just arguing for the sake of it.

Nobody is forcing you to respond. Feel free to move on to something more interesting for you.

 

[Erechel]

Why anybody (specially a low level chara) would fight two or three times in a day unless is desperate or plain stupid? Odds are that the fighter is more injured than the wizard, so even in this desperate situation, the wizard have a chance, but OF COURSE THAT THE SITUATION ALTERS THE OUTCOME, THAT WAS ALWAYS MY POINT. And in a party, the wizzie is ALWAYS useful, and he can manage to control situations a lot better than any class (why use an owl in a cave? Use a rat, or a bat, or a snake). Replace him with any fighter, and the odds are worse for the non magic party. MM, THL, SLP, even BH can make the artillery of the party go up. You can replace it with a bard, of course, and it's almost as useful. YES the wiz is not the best front liner (he still can manage to give a hell of a punch, weeping up the floor with almost any other class without a hit or SoS roll), but is always useful one way or another.

 

[Erechel]

PD and I retire from this post: Color spray blinds a lot of low level creatures, chromatic orb deals a big punch, Ray of Sickness has a great fluff, thunderwave buys a turn for your party, shield is a hell of panic button, and expeditious retreat is a great retreating spell. And above of that, your foes seems to be bold, reckless automatons that doesn't panic and always fight to death even when a skinny fellow burns them, shoots them and shields from their attacks, even knowing what amount of spells the wizzie has. And, odds are, if you get involved in three fights a day, you level up really fast (second level in one day), or die even faster.

 

[Celtavian]

It's also a matter of how you play and look at the wizard. I look at the wizard as the "Oh excrement" button. I usually wander around doing very little for long stretches of time. I let the martials do what the martials do well: kill stuff. When we run into problems, then I start doing stuff to make sure we don't lose. I've been playing wizards in this fashion for a long time. It's how I feel they should be played. If you're looking for more damage which equates to immediate effect, you play a martial or maybe a damage dealing warlock or sorcerer. The wizard is a tide turner when the immediate method doesn't work.

 

[Sadras]

It's also a matter of how you play and look at the wizard. I look at the wizard as the "Oh excrement" button. I usually wander around doing very little for long stretches of time. I let the martials do what the martials do well: kill stuff. When we run into problems, then I start doing stuff to make sure we don't lose. I've been playing wizards in this fashion for a long time. It's how I feel they should be played. If you're looking for more damage which equates to immediate effect, you play a martial or maybe a damage dealing warlock or sorcerer. The wizard is a tide turner when the immediate method doesn't work.

100% agree.

 

[DaveDash]

It's also a matter of how you play and look at the wizard. I look at the wizard as the "Oh excrement" button. I usually wander around doing very little for long stretches of time. I let the martials do what the martials do well: kill stuff. When we run into problems, then I start doing stuff to make sure we don't lose. I've been playing wizards in this fashion for a long time. It's how I feel they should be played. If you're looking for more damage which equates to immediate effect, you play a martial or maybe a damage dealing warlock or sorcerer. The wizard is a tide turner when the immediate method doesn't work.

This is how I play them too. Sounds like KarinsDad wants a more linear scale experience, less top end more low end. For that experience there are other classes.