D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[Malovaan]

If the desinger have done fine with the wizard, this thread wouldn't exist especially with this size.

Or is the size indicative of there being no problem, as so many replies oppose the OP?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I figure it's part of that magic that they understand you. I can see a DM wanting strict verisimilitude might incorporate such a house rule. It is a logical assumption. I don't use that spell. Concentration too much of a problem. At higher level I like animate objects. So much fun to have my flying darts pincushion an opponent.

De gustibus non est disputandem.

I don't like Animate Objects because of the super-short duration, but YMMV.

 

[Celtavian]

Funny, you suggest, I did not read, but do so yourself. Read the title of the thread, read what I wrote. I couldn't care less about your 16th level wizard. Noone will ever reach that level in our group. We care about wizards below level 10 or from 1-6 as did the OP with his first post. I know exactly what I talking about. Perhaps it is not me who rethink his writing here. If the desinger have done fine with the wizard, this thread wouldn't exist especially with this size.

No. You need to read the thread. There is massive disagreement with the OP. This thread proves most people consider the wizard just fine. Maybe if you read it, you would realize that.

There's lots of information on why low level wizards are as effective as other classes.

Maybe there is no thread on warlocks and sorcerers because not many play them.

Or maybe take a look at this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?442899-Convince-me-we-re-doing-the-Warlock-wrong

Some poster is having problems with the warlock. I guess that means the class is no good. Because you know, a thread by a poster complaining is empirical proof.

 

[Goemoe]

[MENTION=6790465]Malovaan[/MENTION] (sorry, didn't think it would be so crowded here. I have been too slow )

You don't believe this yourself, do you? Over 100 pages? You talk to me, I am not the OP and there more than enough people are not happy with the wizard in this thread. But the more vocal fanboys don't want their game to have flaws, so they try to shout us down. I might be wrong, in this case I apologize, honestly, but this thread seems to be exactly that.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Funny, you suggest, I did not read, but do so yourself. Read the title of the thread, read what I wrote. I couldn't care less about your 16th level wizard. Noone will ever reach that level in our group. We care about wizards below level 10 or from 1-6 as did the OP with his first post. I know exactly what I talking about. Perhaps it is not me who rethink his writing here. If the desinger have done fine with the wizard, this thread wouldn't exist especially with this size.

Hey, it's the Internet. The more dubious an argument, the more attention it gets. Try making a thread about something obviously true ("Fireball kills orc mobs easily") and see how long it is.

Never mind, I made one myself: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...l-kills-orc-mobs-easily&p=6603742#post6603742

If thread length correlates with truth, then I expect one of two things to happen: either that thread will grow to 106+ pages, or we will all stop using Fireball against orcs in our games because it's obviously ineffective. ;-)

 

[Celtavian]

You don't believe this yourself, do you? Over 100 pages? You talk to me, I am not the OP and there more than enough people are not happy with the wizard in this thread. But the more vocal fanboys don't want their game to have flaws, so they try to shout us down. I might be wrong, in this case I apologize, honestly, but this thread seems to be exactly that.

Course I believe it. I played a wizard to 16th level. I played them at low level. I told you. They don't do as much damage as the sorcerer and warlock at low level due to not getting their ability modifier to their attack cantrips.

But they are far more useful for other things like ritual spells. Detect Magic and Leomond's Tiny Hut are great at low level. They use effect spells very well. Flaming Sphere is also highly useful along with sleep and minor illusion. I never felt useless at low level, just not as capable of doing damage.

If all you want is damage, then do warlock and sorcerer. You do more damage, less of everything else.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Course I believe it. I played a wizard to 16th level. I played them at low level. I told you. They don't do as much damage as the sorcerer and warlock at low level due to not getting their ability modifier to their attack cantrips.

(The following not addressed directly to Celtavian, who knows better. Just some general remarks.)

Low-level sorcerers don't get their ability modifier to attack cantrips either. That's really only a thing for Red Dragon/Black Dragon sorcs at level 6. No, where sorcerers pull ahead is in Quickened Spell to let them spam multiple cantrips per turn (or a spell + cantrip).

Warlocks are pretty nasty though, and of course Warlock 2/Sorcerer 3 is arguably the best damage-dealer at 5th level with 4 attacks per turn, each potentially doing 12-13 points of damage. If you're into DPR, SorLock is probably your guy. If you're that kind of guy, you will hate the wizard. Conversely, if you're a wizard kind of guy, you will hate the SorLock because he's so extremely narrow.

Play what you enjoy. Apparently there are groups out there where everybody would rather play a Sorcerer than a wizard. I find this astonishing, but that's great! It means the Sorcerer in the PHB is doing his job and doesn't need changes.

 

[Goemoe]

Course I believe it. I played a wizard to 16th level. I played them at low level. I told you. They don't do as much damage as the sorcerer and warlock at low level due to not getting their ability modifier to their attack cantrips.

But they are far more useful for other things like ritual spells. Detect Magic and Leomond's Tiny Hut are great at low level. They use effect spells very well. Flaming Sphere is also highly useful along with sleep and minor illusion. I never felt useless at low level, just not as capable of doing damage.

If all you want is damage, then do warlock and sorcerer. You do more damage, less of everything else.

You continue telling me things, I had already commented before. Why should I do the same thing as you and repeat myself over and over.

Btw: House Rule: Detect magic is a cantrip for wizard. I will never understand, why a wizard should need a spell slot for it. And rituals does our sorcerer as well, we use feat but you know this, I wrote it before.

Let me try it this way: I don't care how many spells a wizard learns in his life or what rituals he can cast. Right, read again. Your main argument is lost on me. I expect from any wizard exactly that. What bores me and especially my players (as I told before, I would play a wizard even with the current rules, because I like them) are the class features offered to a wizard compared to the sorcerer. Metamagic should be the trade of the learned people, knowing how to manipulate magic. The class features of many specs are a joke. They feel so powerless, it is near to annoying to even read them. The transmuter is full of nice ideas, most of the other specs are not.

Specialists as subclass is fine, as long as they feel and play as a subclass. I don't see that. But lets us stop this. You voiced your oppinion, I did with mine. Let's agree to disagree. We won't ever play together an it is about a game, where the rules are guidelines to have fun, nothing more. I wish you a nice day. Mine is over now, time to sleep.

 

[Zander]

That is a pretty strict and harsh ruling by your DM.

No, it isn't. I often disagree with him, but not this time. You would have to explain how and why during your life before becoming a wizard, you chose to learn a language which hardly anyone else on your plane speaks instead of learning one that lots of creatures speak just in case, at some point in the future, you were able to summon elementals and had to talk with them.

I can command my dog to attack or sit without having a language in common. He has around an Int 2-3. Mephits have Int 7 to 11. You should be able to give pretty simple commands such as Attack or Stay without having a language in common. Now if you wanted to get very specific and have them only Attack the third person to come through the door that is wearing armor that isn't red, then sure I can see communication being important.

You do have a language in common with your dog. It's probably English. For sure, it's mostly unidirectional (it understands you; you don't understand it) and its understanding is limited to a few words/gestures, but it does understand. If you're in doubt, try telling it to sit in a language it hasn't heard before like Mandarin or Hindi without the tone/gesture you normally use in English and see if it sits.

Even among real world humans, gestures aren't universal. In the West, for example, if you want to beckon someone, you do it with the arm upwards, and if you want to indicate yourself, you touch your chest with several fingers. In Japan where I used to live, you beckon with the arm down and do a kind of sweeping motion mostly at the wrist, and to indicate oneself you point at the tip of your nose with your index finger. If different gestures exist within a single species (humans) on one plane of existence where lots of communication is possible via the internet, travel etc, imagine the differences between vastly different species (an elf and a fire elemental) from different planes that hardly ever communicate.

Or, you could cast tongues on yourself which will let you be understood by "any creature that knows at least one language."

True, and most of the time you probably would. However, if you wanted the elemental(s) to understand what other party members were saying such as warnings or instructions, you would want to cast tongues on them. A DM would be justified in ruling that interpreting for your elementals takes time and maybe even actions.

As written: "They obey any verbal commands that you issue to them". I hardly think it's incredibly generous to allow someone to command them, its pretty explicit.

No. it isn't. There's nothing in that that indicates they automatically understand you. If you cast message spell, the person you're communicating with doesn't automatically understand you. Spells that involve verbal communication don't translate as well except for those that are designed for that purpose such as tongues.

 

[FowlJ]

No, it isn't. I often disagree with him, but not this time. You would have to explain how and why during your life before becoming a wizard, you chose to learn a language which hardly anyone else on your plane speaks instead of learning one that lots of creatures speak just in case, at some point in the future, you were able to summon elementals and had to talk with them.

The implication being that you just suddenly became a wizard one day and had no idea that you might ever interact with magical creatures for any reason at any point before then?