D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

KarinsDad

Adventurer
I've played through HotDQ, PotA, and the expedition adventures that go along with them and I have always had amazing opportunities to make use of Hold Person.

Then you also know that there are a lot of humanoid foes in those modules at low levels that one would not waste a 2nd level spell slot on. Most are cultist flunkies, kobolds, etc. Only leaders and BBEGs require a Hold Person at low levels. At higher levels, sure. I've already admitted that in a higher level slot, Hold Person starts gaining a lot more traction.

Burning Hands in a second level slot works better than Hold Person against most humanoids in those modules since most humanoids are mooks. So does Thunderous Wave. So does a lot of other area effect spells. Even in your Bugbear example, the most likely result of a second level Burning Hands on two Bugbears tends to result in one Bugbear being half damaged and the other one being quarter damaged. That's 20 points of damage that Hold Person probably will not catch up to for two allied PCs (since they had a chance to hit anyway, Hold Person merely buffs their damage and to hit). If the other two PCs hit the half damaged one, the party is still down one bugbear in a single round and another Bugbear is quarter damaged. If the caster can catch 3 Bugbears, it's even more gravy.

Note: Even Sleep in a second level spell slot will often do better than Hold Person against three Bugbears since there is no save. On average, Sleep will take out a Bugbear and the two other PCs can attack the other Bugbears.

At low level, there are many spells that have a lot more targets that they can affect which can work against humanoids better than Hold Person.

There are always exceptions, but holding onto a prepped spell for those exceptions to come up is a resource expense, one that may or may not pay off most adventuring days.


Just because you had a few good results with Hold Person at low level does not make it a good low level spell. Our party is level 6 and half of them have access to Hold Person and none of them have ever cast it. Possibly that's because we do not have a lot of town adventures in my game, but mostly I think it's because there are often better options at low level.

Nope. Because they wouldn't have auto-critted on the target of Tasha's and the target would get a save after every hit.

While this is true, the foe would still be prone until its turn which means that at least one PC gets advantaged attacks and possibly two. A slight drop in DPR in return for a spell that affects (and the player actually wants to cast on) a lot more potential creatures. Pros and Cons.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


the Jester

Legend
That is one issue with low level Wizards that people tend to ignore when they post that low level wizards do not suck.

Or, you know, they just disagree with you. People can disagree with you without missing anything, overlooking anything or ignoring anything.

Yes, there are times when any given spell isn't what you need. That's why semi-Vancian, fairly flexible spellcasting is a huge step up from older editions. But even so, part of the game is the fact that no one character always has the best answer to every challenge. Remember, you don't have to "hold onto" that prepped hold person waiting to use it- you just need a spell slot. Any spell slot of 2nd or higher level.

Anyway, just because you haven't had good results with hold person doesn't make it a bad spell- especially since, by your own admission, your party hasn't cast it. I haven't seen phantasmal force in play, but that doesn't mean that it's a weak or bad spell- just that I haven't seen it. I haven't seen anyone cast lesser restoration yet, either, but it's awesome.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Yes, there are times when any given spell isn't what you need. That's why semi-Vancian, fairly flexible spellcasting is a huge step up from older editions. But even so, part of the game is the fact that no one character always has the best answer to every challenge. Remember, you don't have to "hold onto" that prepped hold person waiting to use it- you just need a spell slot. Any spell slot of 2nd or higher level.

But, you do need the prep slot. That's a fairly valuable resource at low level (and probably at higher levels).

I am not arguing the effectiveness of Hold Person when a good situation arises, I am arguing how often it comes into play and is worth casting.

Anyway, just because you haven't had good results with hold person doesn't make it a bad spell- especially since, by your own admission, your party hasn't cast it. I haven't seen phantasmal force in play, but that doesn't mean that it's a weak or bad spell- just that I haven't seen it. I haven't seen anyone cast lesser restoration yet, either, but it's awesome.

Yes, our Cleric player keeps prepping Lesser Restoration and she is still waiting to use it. She does the same for Revival. Her viewpoint, however, is that hers is the only PC that can do these types of things, so she sets aside some prep slots for them. Although the players of the Druid or the Paladin could cast LR if needed, the players just don't prep it, especially the Paladin who has Lay on Hands.

I guess it is time to throw some more blindness, poison, paralysis etc. at my PCs. :devil:
 


Jessica

First Post
While this is true, the foe would still be prone until its turn which means that at least one PC gets advantaged attacks and possibly two. A slight drop in DPR in return for a spell that affects (and the player actually wants to cast on) a lot more potential creatures. Pros and Cons.

I prepare both spells and I get a lot more use out of Hold Person because most of my 1st level spell slots go towards Mage Armor and Shield. I don't prepare many damaging spells(sometimes none at all) because I usually have a party that does enough DPR that I don't have to worry about Magic Missile or Burning Hands. I pick up a bunch of CC/utility spells and try to get as many rituals as I can in my spellbook. Pre-level 5 whenever I had to do actual damage then I shoot my longbow for 1d8+3. Unless it's like Fireball or something, I rarely touch damage spells because any person can damage, but not everyone can shut an enemy down. If you don't get much use out of Hold Person than fine, but HotDQ and PotA had enough humanoid enemies with large amounts of hit points that I rarely went an adventure without having a good target for Hold Person. Although admittedly I was a Staff of Charming junkie so I tended to burn charges on Command and try to save at least a single level 2 spell slot for Invising out of there if people dropped since we don't believe in healers. Admittedly we have yet to really come close to a TPK though except for the one adventure where we did have a Life Cleric. Funny how that happens.
 



KarinsDad

Adventurer
I prepare both spells and I get a lot more use out of Hold Person because most of my 1st level spell slots go towards Mage Armor and Shield. I don't prepare many damaging spells(sometimes none at all) because I usually have a party that does enough DPR that I don't have to worry about Magic Missile or Burning Hands. I pick up a bunch of CC/utility spells and try to get as many rituals as I can in my spellbook. Pre-level 5 whenever I had to do actual damage then I shoot my longbow for 1d8+3. Unless it's like Fireball or something, I rarely touch damage spells because any person can damage, but not everyone can shut an enemy down. If you don't get much use out of Hold Person than fine, but HotDQ and PotA had enough humanoid enemies with large amounts of hit points that I rarely went an adventure without having a good target for Hold Person. Although admittedly I was a Staff of Charming junkie so I tended to burn charges on Command and try to save at least a single level 2 spell slot for Invising out of there if people dropped since we don't believe in healers. Admittedly we have yet to really come close to a TPK though except for the one adventure where we did have a Life Cleric. Funny how that happens.

We have only had one PC death (my wizard before I took over as DM at the end of level 4), but we almost had a TPK just last week. After killing a minor BBEG (the PCs thought that he was the main BBEG), the PCs had acquired a ring that allowed the minor BBEG to communicate once per day (similar to Sending Stone) with a major BBEG (still not the main BBEG, but higher on the food chain). The PCs have a way to do Scry once per day, so they tried to scry an identical ring and my random "high is good for the party" roll resulted in them scrying the major BBEG. Later on, they communicated with him, but based on how the spell works, he realized that it was not his flunky calling. So, the major BBEG (who himself has the Scry spell) scried back and was successful. Based on their surroundings, he was able to discern their location and the direction they were heading. So, he sent a Young Blue Dragon (with double Cha spells) CR 9+, a Half Blue Dragon CR 5, and 3 other CR ~2 Draconic foes (I forget their names, maybe Dragonwings they are out of RoT or HotDQ) against 7 level 6 PCs. This is a deadly encounter to begin with and the NPCs set up an ambush site, so they ended up with surprise on half of the PCs. It was definitely an assassination squad and it nearly succeeded (two PCs that we thought had died due to massive damage ended up actually just dying due to a careful reading of the death rules and how they interact with the Aid spell).

But, I tend to go for fewer tougher encounters: the previous two encounters (different day) were a CR 13 Vampire (medium encounter due to action economy, i.e. no NPC allies, but still 10,000 XP or 1/6th PC level) that was kicking their butts until the Daylight spell came out; and one with a Mind Flayer, 2 Elite Drow, and a dozen normal Drow (deadly encounter) who had NPC cowering miners in the battlefield, so the PCs had difficulty trotting out area effect spells without killing miners. So when there are tougher encounters, the chance of PC death increases. Medium encounters are often the weakest I throw at the party, mostly because there are 7 players and grinding through a weak encounter just eats up precious gaming time. IMO.

In these three encounters, each second level Hold Person could have affected very few of these foes: at best an Elite Drow (or less impressively, one of the normal Drow), but even then, it was a large battlefield (~200 feet x 150 feet) with a lot of Darkness spells all over the place and although the players eventually figured out which Drow were the best fighters, the PCs (and Drow) were all over the place and a Hold would not have resulted in too many PCs getting free crits. The elite drow were on opposite sides of the encounter, so having both of them within 60 feet for a third level spell slot would have been possible, but more problematic. A player could also accidentally cast a Hold Person on the Mind Flayer (the biggest threat on the board) that looks somewhat humanoid and it would have failed (granted, I would have given the player an Arcana(Int) roll after he declared his action to figure out that Mind Flayers are not humanoids).

In some campaigns, the players always know whether a given spell is applicable or not (i.e. the DM tells them the type of monster). At my table, it's usually some type of Int roll. So a spell like Hold Person might be self limiting at my table, just because it could more often be cast on invalid targets than at other tables (not that the players have actually tried Hold Person yet).

Granted, a successful Hold Person in that encounter would have probably saved some other resources (the elite Drow were dishing out the most damage), but it probably would not have shortened the encounter by too much. An unsuccessful Hold Person might have extended the encounter by a hair (one PC wasting a spell and a spell slot that did nothing). But the utility of lower level Hold Person definitely seems to be campaign dependent.
 
Last edited:

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
I have for myself. I did not think low level wizards sucked. I found interesting ways to use spells. Obviously they get more fun at higher level, most of the classes do. The hardest part might be surviving to level 5 if you get focused on. You have the lowest AC of the classes. In a point buy campaign, it's difficult to obtain an AC better than 16 with mage armor if you use the 1st level slot. I sort of feel they should have just given caster's a mage armor type ability similar to the barbarian and monk's defense. It wouldn't have imbalanced anything. It would have made sense in the context of the game. Overall, wizard's are quite fun in 5E. I think you have to build them differently than the traditional wizard. Rather than being an erudite fellow that studies books all the time, it's better to be more well rounded. I highly recommend taking the Stealth skill if you can. Minor Illusion and Stealth are quite fun.
 

Remove ads

Top