CubicsRube
Hero
Obviously (thread) necromancy is powerful.I would debate if the wizard being underpowered even at high level is anything close to a consensus, though.
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D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E
- Thread starter KarinsDad
- Start date
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CubicsRube
Hero
On above im ok with wizards being less powered than martials in combat, because in general they have more utility out of combat
cbwjm
Seb-wejem
Ask him why he wanted to play a wizard if he was never going to cast any spells? I really want to know what he was thinking and so far the only answer I can think of was that he was playing Rincewind from discworld.
Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
My Tiamat group had a Wizard (played by a teenager) who I had to train to cast spells - start with one per fight, since his reasoning was "I might need a big one later" - while I was a fellow-player (Paladin). Cantrip-snipers are useful but do not fully deploy their character's potential.
After he discovered that Shatter or Wall of Fire or Control Water (vs. the Loch Ness Monster) could be game-changers, he started playing more like a Wizard.
Entangling 24 kobolds as set-up for a Fireball (because I was tactically clumsy as DM) spurred him on, too.
I was very proud of him when he finally started off a fight by announcing a spell, without having to be prodded.
After he discovered that Shatter or Wall of Fire or Control Water (vs. the Loch Ness Monster) could be game-changers, he started playing more like a Wizard.
Entangling 24 kobolds as set-up for a Fireball (because I was tactically clumsy as DM) spurred him on, too.
I was very proud of him when he finally started off a fight by announcing a spell, without having to be prodded.
Arkan Redenford
First Post
I will be putting together a new guide for wizards in 5e.
I play d&d since Ad&d and for all this time played almost exclusively wizards and l couldn't disagree more with you all. That is the reason of my question today.
I have had my fair share of 5e. Played two campaings from 1 to 20 and dozens of other games at all level range. In 70% of the games, even at lv1 i managed to be the "most valuable player", did more damage and single handed ended several encounters, this all with my wizards.
For me there is no comparison with other classes. Wizards are the OP for 5e (as before) followed by Bards in second (only because they can get wizard spells).
The beauty of 5e is that the sistem has made so that every class feel as they should be. If you play a rogue you feel like beeing a rogue. If you play a fighter you smash things with your weapon in a way that you feel powerful. And wizards are no different, only that 5e demands a lot more "player skill".
In d&d 3.5 for instance a lot of players argued that the most strong "combo" for a wizard is to cast fly and invisibility and smash things from a far. In that time any one could bring simple child tricks to the table and excel with spellcasters. That is obvioulsy not the case anymore.
In 5e i managed to finish entire dungeons on lv15+ even before put a single foot on the dungeon. Doing all from safe distance using simulacra, sumons and divination. Remotely playing my peons. And only the wizard can pull that kind of tricks on 5e.
This is just a heads up, i will produce my guide and post here. In the meanwhile, if interested, start heading this excelent guide: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?450158-Treantmonk-s-Guide-to-Wizards-5e
In 3.5 Treatmonks guide was a piece of work, genius, but for 5e that were a lot of room for us to explore.
To play a strong wizard first you need to think like a strong wizard.
I play d&d since Ad&d and for all this time played almost exclusively wizards and l couldn't disagree more with you all. That is the reason of my question today.
I have had my fair share of 5e. Played two campaings from 1 to 20 and dozens of other games at all level range. In 70% of the games, even at lv1 i managed to be the "most valuable player", did more damage and single handed ended several encounters, this all with my wizards.
For me there is no comparison with other classes. Wizards are the OP for 5e (as before) followed by Bards in second (only because they can get wizard spells).
The beauty of 5e is that the sistem has made so that every class feel as they should be. If you play a rogue you feel like beeing a rogue. If you play a fighter you smash things with your weapon in a way that you feel powerful. And wizards are no different, only that 5e demands a lot more "player skill".
In d&d 3.5 for instance a lot of players argued that the most strong "combo" for a wizard is to cast fly and invisibility and smash things from a far. In that time any one could bring simple child tricks to the table and excel with spellcasters. That is obvioulsy not the case anymore.
In 5e i managed to finish entire dungeons on lv15+ even before put a single foot on the dungeon. Doing all from safe distance using simulacra, sumons and divination. Remotely playing my peons. And only the wizard can pull that kind of tricks on 5e.
This is just a heads up, i will produce my guide and post here. In the meanwhile, if interested, start heading this excelent guide: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?450158-Treantmonk-s-Guide-to-Wizards-5e
In 3.5 Treatmonks guide was a piece of work, genius, but for 5e that were a lot of room for us to explore.
To play a strong wizard first you need to think like a strong wizard.
Cascade
First Post
Exactly.
I generally only play wizards as I find dps classes to be kinda boring.
Wizards always seem OP when they focus on battlefield control.
Wizards always seem weak when focused on sustained dpr
Arkan Redenford
First Post
That is not entirely true. Lets analyse a real example.
Last night i played one wizard in a group of 4 players level 3 (Wizard, Paladin, Rogue, Cleric). We had 3 encounters.
On the first one we faced 2 bugbears, that one was very easy. I have scouted the room with my spider familiar and we know what we are facing. The rogue and myself used stealth to get a surprise round and both gained initiative. The rogue did 3d6+3 and i 1d8+3, on second round the rogue hit the bugbear and killed him, on my turn i casted a Tashas Laugh on the second and the combat was over before even began.
The second fight we crossed paths with a group of scouts, was a Dragonborn Spy (MM349 with breath attack) and 4 scouts (MM349), again i scouted the room with my spider. The rogue failed his stealth check was notice but we are aout of sight of the room around a corner. The paladin moved to close the corridor (still of sight), the dragonborn moved to him and managed to hit. The rogue attacked the dragonborn and also hited, my turn, i concentrated a shatter spell and prepared to release the spell behind the dragonborn at the end of the turn, the cleric also moved but missed the dragonborn, then all scouts moved to get view of the party, unaware of my spell. On the end of the turn i got lucky and rolled 21 damage, all scouts failed the save, i did 94 dmg in a single round. The next turn the party managed to kill the dragonborn.
And the third encounter was against another group of scouts, 6 scouts, 2 spy (no dragonborns this time). Again i scouted ahead with my spider and this time we managed to get surprise, included the paladin. This fight was a lot more hard, i casted my last shatter and one burning hands and we won without any downed character. The paladin and the cleric stoped the enemys using dodge and sanctuary, myself and the rogue attacked from distance.
That was a regular day of combats for that group, at the end:
1o Encounter
Paladin Dmg 5/ Cleric Dmg 0/ Rogue Dmg 26/ Wizard Dmg 6
2o Encounter
Paladin Dmg 15/ Cleric Dmg 0/ Rogue Dmg 10/ Wizard Dmg 94
3o Encounter
Paladin Dmg 23/ Cleric Dmg 3/ Rogue Dmg 42/ Wizard Dmg 82
I always calculate info from the games i play like damage per character, and several other things to help me analyse the game.
As can be seen, with a wizard i managed to be top DPR in two of three encounters and the one that i was not i completely disabled the only enemy alive.
In no way im saying that a wizard HAS to be a DPR character, or that this is the best strategy, but what im saying is that IF he wants to be a DPR character he can be, after all the best status a controler can apply to monsters are DEAD.
Last night i played one wizard in a group of 4 players level 3 (Wizard, Paladin, Rogue, Cleric). We had 3 encounters.
On the first one we faced 2 bugbears, that one was very easy. I have scouted the room with my spider familiar and we know what we are facing. The rogue and myself used stealth to get a surprise round and both gained initiative. The rogue did 3d6+3 and i 1d8+3, on second round the rogue hit the bugbear and killed him, on my turn i casted a Tashas Laugh on the second and the combat was over before even began.
The second fight we crossed paths with a group of scouts, was a Dragonborn Spy (MM349 with breath attack) and 4 scouts (MM349), again i scouted the room with my spider. The rogue failed his stealth check was notice but we are aout of sight of the room around a corner. The paladin moved to close the corridor (still of sight), the dragonborn moved to him and managed to hit. The rogue attacked the dragonborn and also hited, my turn, i concentrated a shatter spell and prepared to release the spell behind the dragonborn at the end of the turn, the cleric also moved but missed the dragonborn, then all scouts moved to get view of the party, unaware of my spell. On the end of the turn i got lucky and rolled 21 damage, all scouts failed the save, i did 94 dmg in a single round. The next turn the party managed to kill the dragonborn.
And the third encounter was against another group of scouts, 6 scouts, 2 spy (no dragonborns this time). Again i scouted ahead with my spider and this time we managed to get surprise, included the paladin. This fight was a lot more hard, i casted my last shatter and one burning hands and we won without any downed character. The paladin and the cleric stoped the enemys using dodge and sanctuary, myself and the rogue attacked from distance.
That was a regular day of combats for that group, at the end:
1o Encounter
Paladin Dmg 5/ Cleric Dmg 0/ Rogue Dmg 26/ Wizard Dmg 6
2o Encounter
Paladin Dmg 15/ Cleric Dmg 0/ Rogue Dmg 10/ Wizard Dmg 94
3o Encounter
Paladin Dmg 23/ Cleric Dmg 3/ Rogue Dmg 42/ Wizard Dmg 82
I always calculate info from the games i play like damage per character, and several other things to help me analyse the game.
As can be seen, with a wizard i managed to be top DPR in two of three encounters and the one that i was not i completely disabled the only enemy alive.
In no way im saying that a wizard HAS to be a DPR character, or that this is the best strategy, but what im saying is that IF he wants to be a DPR character he can be, after all the best status a controler can apply to monsters are DEAD.
Cascade
First Post
In no way im saying that a wizard HAS to be a DPR character, or that this is the best strategy, but what im saying is that IF he wants to be a DPR character he can be, after all the best status a controler can apply to monsters are DEAD.
Well, that's awesome...but now what will your damage be in the next few encounters? 3 per day seems kinda slim but if that is your DM, I can see your point.
You could have probably ended one encounter with an appropriately placed web, ended another with a sleep...and still had spell slots for more. Perhaps I'm more conservative in how I use slots, but giving my team advantage for a round or too or eliminating actions by enemies tends to be my focus as a wizard...unless there are 3 or more fireball targets nicely spaced.
Zardnaar
Legend
That is not entirely true. Lets analyse a real example.
Last night i played one wizard in a group of 4 players level 3 (Wizard, Paladin, Rogue, Cleric). We had 3 encounters.
On the first one we faced 2 bugbears, that one was very easy. I have scouted the room with my spider familiar and we know what we are facing. The rogue and myself used stealth to get a surprise round and both gained initiative. The rogue did 3d6+3 and i 1d8+3, on second round the rogue hit the bugbear and killed him, on my turn i casted a Tashas Laugh on the second and the combat was over before even began.
The second fight we crossed paths with a group of scouts, was a Dragonborn Spy (MM349 with breath attack) and 4 scouts (MM349), again i scouted the room with my spider. The rogue failed his stealth check was notice but we are aout of sight of the room around a corner. The paladin moved to close the corridor (still of sight), the dragonborn moved to him and managed to hit. The rogue attacked the dragonborn and also hited, my turn, i concentrated a shatter spell and prepared to release the spell behind the dragonborn at the end of the turn, the cleric also moved but missed the dragonborn, then all scouts moved to get view of the party, unaware of my spell. On the end of the turn i got lucky and rolled 21 damage, all scouts failed the save, i did 94 dmg in a single round. The next turn the party managed to kill the dragonborn.
And the third encounter was against another group of scouts, 6 scouts, 2 spy (no dragonborns this time). Again i scouted ahead with my spider and this time we managed to get surprise, included the paladin. This fight was a lot more hard, i casted my last shatter and one burning hands and we won without any downed character. The paladin and the cleric stoped the enemys using dodge and sanctuary, myself and the rogue attacked from distance.
That was a regular day of combats for that group, at the end:
1o Encounter
Paladin Dmg 5/ Cleric Dmg 0/ Rogue Dmg 26/ Wizard Dmg 6
2o Encounter
Paladin Dmg 15/ Cleric Dmg 0/ Rogue Dmg 10/ Wizard Dmg 94
3o Encounter
Paladin Dmg 23/ Cleric Dmg 3/ Rogue Dmg 42/ Wizard Dmg 82
I always calculate info from the games i play like damage per character, and several other things to help me analyse the game.
As can be seen, with a wizard i managed to be top DPR in two of three encounters and the one that i was not i completely disabled the only enemy alive.
In no way im saying that a wizard HAS to be a DPR character, or that this is the best strategy, but what im saying is that IF he wants to be a DPR character he can be, after all the best status a controler can apply to monsters are DEAD.
Except the idea is 6 to 8 encounters. I can write your guide for you. Nova off don't worry about the rest of the day.
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