Low magic custom classes

[Desdichado]

After talking about it a bit in the main forum, I cobbled up some rules for a low magic version of D&D, including a "low magic" spell-casting class, a non-magic ranger variant (heavily based on the WoT Woodsman) and a non-supernatural monk variant, a combination of the WoT algai'd'siswai and the PHB monk.

Of course, the low magic spell-caster will be terribly unbalanced if you give out magic items to the other classes as the DMG says, so this assumes they will be similarly constrained by the low magic of the setting.

Check them out here.

 

[Crothian]

Not too bad. For the Wizard, I'd lower the amount of subdual damage and temp Int damage in favor of increasing the Int needed to cast spells. I'd up it to 12+spell levl or possible 14+spell level. This would make the higher level spells really rare as it is very hard to aquire a high attribute.

I think the Monk is a little weak. I'd include in the Flurry of blows, and some of their weaker abilities (like the jumping one).

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

The Woodsman is very cool, but I don't know if letting his partial improved initiative ability stack with the improved initiative feat is a good idea in the balance department (as every woodsman would be a fool not to get +8 to his initiative!). I would just give him a "virtual" Improved Initiative feat in light or no armor. If he wants it in heavier armor, he can buy the Improved Initiative feat. If he wants faster initiative than that, there is the Blooded and Thug feats from FRCS (each adding +2 Initiative and +2 to Spot or Intimidate, respectively). TQF has a Lightning Initiative feat that gives +4 Initiative and stacks with Improved Initiative (with Improved Initiative as a requirement).

The Martial Artist and Wizard--what Crothian said. Crothy is a smart guy and has helped me out before on my house rules projects with his "sage advice". Hi, Crothy! *waves at Crothian*

With the wizard, by making it Int damage, the wizard will quickly not be able to cast higher level spells because he won't be smart enough to cast them after blowing some subdual rolls. I also think your system is more complicated than mine, and forcing a roll to even cast a spell is one extra step everybody must remember and will slow down combat. Thoughts?

 

[Desdichado]

Well, as it is a Mage needs an Intelligence of 19 to cast the highest level spells, and it's quite dangerous to do so. In theory, any PC mage can get there, but as for the population of the campaign setting at large, not very many folks will have the capability to cast higher level spells, and fewer still will have the inclination to do so very often. I kinda like the spells being more dangerous to cast rather than more uncommon.

The Martial artist does include the Flurry of Blows skill already. In fact, I was worried that it'd be too powerful; almost all the algai'd'siswai class features and a few monk class features thrown in to boot! I had originally given a hit die d10 to the class (as the algai'd'siswai) but lowered it to d8. Why do you think it's underpowered? Got fighter BAB and Save progressions, d8 hit die, all the algai'd'siswai class features and most of the non-supernatural monk features as well.

And as for the Woodsman, that's the way it is in the WoT game. All I did was finagle the class so it looked more like a D&D class (removed the AC progression and reputation, gave it a "normal" save progression.)

Anyway, not shooting down your suggestions, but I'm just curious as to where they're coming from.

EDIT: Forgot to address another question! I agree that the extra step makes casting a bit more complex. I'm not really attached to it, I thought I'd throw it in and see how it works. It's still not overly complex, I don't think, but it's not necessary. I dunno.

 

[Crothian]

The Woodsman is very cool, but I don't know if letting his partial improved initiative ability stack with the improved initiative feat is a good idea in the balance department (as every woodsman would be a fool not to get +8 to his initiative!).

AS iniative is only rolled once per combat, I find that having a huge bonus isn't that big of deal. Feats are hard to choose anyway, and slow to come by.

The Martial Artist and Wizard--what Crothian said. Crothy is a smart guy and has helped me out before on my house rules projects with his "sage advice". Hi, Crothy! *waves at Crothian*

*Waves at Kaptain_Kantrip* That's interesting. House Rules is my fovoriute forum becasue it's here we truely see peoples creativity with this game. So, I try to help everyone that post here in some way. I've wondered what people think of me. I'm odd that way, and in so many others.

With the wizard, by making it Int damage, the wizard will quickly not be able to cast higher level spells because he won't be smart enough to cast them after blowing some subdual rolls. I also think your system is more complicated than mine, and forcing a roll to even cast a spell is one extra step everybody must remember and will slow down combat. Thoughts?

The Wizard does get a will save (10 + spell level) to avoid the damage. Iron will should be very populiar among these guys. I do think the damage is a little high, though. One bad save and you could destroy the usefulness of the character. That might be harsh. Hindering the usefulness is okay as the player now has to think of ways to still do stuff. But destroying the usefulness means the player just sits there twiddiling his thumbs.

 

[Crothian]

Well, as it is a Mage needs an Intelligence of 19 to cast the highest level spells, and it's quite dangerous to do so. In theory, any PC mage can get there, but as for the population of the campaign setting at large, not very many folks will have the capability to cast higher level spells, and fewer still will have the inclination to do so very often. I kinda like the spells being more dangerous to cast rather than more uncommon.

That's fine. Obviously, my suggestions making the spells a little safer but hardier to qualify for. Either ways it's balanced, just depends on what you like.

The Martial artist does include the Flurry of Blows skill already. In fact, I was worried that it'd be too powerful; almost all the algai'd'siswai class features and a few monk class features thrown in to boot! I had originally given a hit die d10 to the class (as the algai'd'siswai) but lowered it to d8. Why do you think it's underpowered? Got fighter BAB and Save progressions, d8 hit die, all the algai'd'siswai class features and most of the non-supernatural monk features as well.

I don't see the Flurry of Blows under the Martial artist. I may be missing it or you forgot it. The way I'm looking at it you've increase the BAB, but decreased will save, got rid of the higher base speed, got rid of the additional HtH attacks. In addition you changed the abilities. Personally, I think evasion fits better then uncanny dodge, however with the low magic evasion really loses it's usefulness. The bonus to iniative is nice, but IMO weak. I'm not familiar with the other class that inspired this, so I'm comparing the PHB monk to this only.

And as for the Woodsman, that's the way it is in the WoT game. All I did was finagle the class so it looked more like a D&D class (removed the AC progression and reputation, gave it a "normal" save progression.)

Anyway, not shooting down your suggestions, but I'm just curious as to where they're coming from.

EDIT: Forgot to address another question! I agree that the extra step makes casting a bit more complex. I'm not really attached to it, I thought I'd throw it in and see how it works. It's still not overly complex, I don't think, but it's not necessary. I dunno.

I like the extra step. I think wizards should roll a die to determine if spells work. Automatic spell workings is boring.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I was just checking to see if you understood the ramifications of the changes you were proposing to the Wizard with the Int damage and Spellcraft checks. Sometimes I jot down ideas that look good on paper, but then have unexpected problems later. Ask Crothy, LOL!

I don't own WoT, but it just seemed potentially (not necessarily) unbalancing having Partial Improved Initiative stack with Improved Initiative, because I know I would take that feat and get +8 to initiative (I'd also get a high DEX mod, making it up to +12). Had you considered giving them good Reflex saves instead of Fortitude?

The Martial Artist--ok, I didn't really look closely at that one (I have little interest in martial arts character classes) and just took Crothy's comments as correct. You got me there!

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

The extra die roll to cast a spell in theory is a good and logical idea, but in practice I've found--at least in my games--that anything beyond the basics is going to get lost. Frex: We never once remembered to roll Arcane Spell Failure since 3e was released. Not once. And we only thought about rolling it maybe once per year, and only after a game. It's just not a good mechanic, IMO. Many wizard's defensive spells don't stack with armor anyway, and the wizard still needs to get Armor Proficfiency feats (although these are easily gained by multi-classing to say, fighter or cleric).

 

[Crothian]

Frex: We never once remembered to roll Arcane Spell Failure since 3e was released. Not once. And we only thought about rolling it maybe once per year, and only after a game. It's just not a good mechanic, IMO. Many wizard's defensive spells don't stack with armor anyway, and the wizard still needs to get Armor Proficfiency feats (although these are easily gained by multi-classing to say, fighter or cleric).

That is a good point. I played a Bard for a year and never once remember to roll. I wrote myself notes, but they always got buried. No one else noticed either, and I never brought it up. However, in this case since it is a bigger feature of the class and always applies it will be easier to remember.

 

[Desdichado]

Thanks for the comments, guys. I'll have a look at the martial artist and see if I think he comes up weak. I really wasn't "benchmarking" the current monk, so I don't really know how well he stacks up to him. How does he stack up to, say, the fighter or the rogue, I wonder?