Low-magic/High-magic: The casting or the spells?

[Azgulor]

I hate the D&D magic system as presented in the core rules. Hate it.

In my seemingly unending quest to strike the right magical balance for my fantasy campaign I've purchased a couple of alternative magic systems: Grim Tales, Sovereign Stone, Thieves' World, Elements of Magic. I've read some reviews of AU/AE. Most seem to focus more on the mechanics of casting rather than modifying the actual spells. I like the various spellcasting modifications that Grim Tales and the Thieves' World Player's Guide offer. Grim Tales is probably my favorite, but too drastic a change for the campaign setting. TWPG is the current winner for a balance between "too low" and "too f-ing high".

However, both assume/allow for standard D&D spells. I've only recently converted my campaign to d20 and so far magic has been backdrop only (no spellcaster PCs yet). Do the mechanical changes go far enough to change the feel away from High Magic? Or do spells like Haste, Teleport, etc. preserve the high magic feel? I recognize the flavor that the skill-based casting and risks provide and I love them, I just worry that they only address one half of the equation.

Elements of Magic is phenomenal, but has a steep learning curve and at least appears to result in another High Magic result unless I modify the system.

I've also heard that AU/AE structures magic around the 4 classical medieval elements. Although this appeals to me, I'm also under the impression that AU/AE is High Magic, just like D&D.

Any actual play experiences/recommendations? I'm currently taking the "start with no spells and add what you want" approach, but it's slow going.

Thanks,

Azgulor

 

[Epic76]

Elaborate?

AE is very, very well done. It may be a little too much like D&D for your taste, but most of the spells are completely different, the accompanying feats and classes add a lot to the magic system. However, AE is lower magic than D&D, yet higher then a true, gritty (IH) low-magic setting.

What specifically are you looking for in a magic system? Are you trying to get away from spells completely, ie EoM?

 

[Azgulor]

AE is very, very well done. It may be a little too much like D&D for your taste, but most of the spells are completely different, the accompanying feats and classes add a lot to the magic system. However, AE is lower magic than D&D, yet higher then a true, gritty (IH) low-magic setting.

What specifically are you looking for in a magic system? Are you trying to get away from spells completely, ie EoM?

No, I like the idea of spells. I'd prefer something that permits powerful magic at high levels, but magic that is more subtle. Mainly, I want to preserve the medieval feel of the setting - I don't want every castle to have be built around the idea of defending against people flying over the walls like Superman. I guess by way of example, I don't like Teleport and Fly, but don't have a problem with higher level spells enabling the caster to turn into a bird (and only a bird) or even Wind Walk.

It doesn't have to be low-magic per se or grim-n-gritty. It does have to get away from the D&D feel, however. As another example, I probably wouldn't have a problem with Hold Person if it was either A) a higher level spell or B) required the caster to maintain contact with the Held party - either maintaining eye contact, the frozen party must hear the caster's voice, the hold only lasting while the caster sings, etc.

I've thought about trying to tweak the existing system like my Hold Person example above, but I don't want to spend what little prep time I have on rewriting the spells if I don't have to.

If AE by default, results in a lower magic feel than D&D and uses different spells, I might have to check it out. I assume that the spells could be removed wholesale and combined with TW or GT spellcasting if AE's isn't to my liking?

Thanks,

Azgulor

 

[sinmissing]

I'm also one that is on a constant quest for a suitable magic system. I gotta tell you, my new favorite is Thieves' World. (with a few tweeks)

With TW's system, a sorcerer (any spellcaster) can cast any spell. There is no fire and forget. And there is always an option to cast a spell as a ritual, (longer casting time, but better duration, and you can share the price of the spell).

Spells causes non-lethal damage, or lethal damage depending on how powerful the spell is. For example, a first level mage could technically cast a wish spell (if he had it on a scroll), but casting the spell would take him at least a couple of minutes and would kill him outright.

So far the system seems much more low magic, spells take longer to cast, and several spells (healing, spells that rely on alignment) have been completely removed.

There are rules for varying ambient mana levels, spell failure, catastrophic results, etc.

Best of all, I can use all the existing spells with this system.

 

[Azgulor]

I'm also one that is on a constant quest for a suitable magic system. I gotta tell you, my new favorite is Thieves' World. (with a few tweeks)

With TW's system, a sorcerer (any spellcaster) can cast any spell. There is no fire and forget. And there is always an option to cast a spell as a ritual, (longer casting time, but better duration, and you can share the price of the spell).

Spells causes non-lethal damage, or lethal damage depending on how powerful the spell is. For example, a first level mage could technically cast a wish spell (if he had it on a scroll), but casting the spell would take him at least a couple of minutes and would kill him outright.

So far the system seems much more low magic, spells take longer to cast, and several spells (healing, spells that rely on alignment) have been completely removed.

There are rules for varying ambient mana levels, spell failure, catastrophic results, etc.

Best of all, I can use all the existing spells with this system.

Have you had a chance to play it yet? I arrived at the same conclusion that TW was the mechanics system to use - for all of the reasons you mention. I'm just wondering if it goes far enough to remove the D&D feel since the standard spells are used. I can still see where every mage will end up taking magic missle, sleep, invisibility, fireball, , etc. This was the main concern that prompted my post: I don't want the mechanics to capture the desired feel and then have the spells piss it away.

Azgulor

 

[sinmissing]

I'm just wondering if it goes far enough to remove the D&D feel since the standard spells are used. I can still see where every mage will end up taking magic missle, sleep, invisibility, fireball, , etc.

No, it doesn't go far enough in this respect.

This was the main concern that prompted my post: I don't want the mechanics to capture the desired feel and then have the spells piss it away.

There are some solutions, I think:

If flashy spells have you down: magic missile, fireball, lightning bolt, teleport. Why not just remove them from the spell lists? I could see this as a possible approach:

Take the Arcane list and the Druidic list, and add them together.

Remove the spells you just don't like. - or - add a required Attack Roll, even if it's just a ranged touch attack.

Remove damaging spells that do not require an Attack roll to strike.

Make the recipient of all buffing spells make a Fortitude Save on spell end or become fatigued. (A metamagic feat, which increases the level by +1 removes the fatiguing nature of beneficial magic)

As per TW, nix the direct healing spells and make them convert lethal damage instead.

If I'm touching the right nerve I can continue. . .

If I'm still way off, try GR's The Psychic Handbook. Very "low magic" feel, although you'll still have to nix teleport. It has no flashbang damage "spells" at all.

 

[Azgulor]

Thanks for the suggestions. My d20-Fu is still weak since my group's only got a few d20 sessions under our belt so far. The modifications you've suggested seem spot on for what I'm trying to achieve and are very much appreciated. Especially the ranged attacks for spells. I don't mind a little flash, but auto-hits don't work for me. I suspect, since we're talking TW spellcasting, the spellcasting/ritual bonus would be used in place of the BAB?

Thanks,

Azgulor

 

[Red Spire Press]

Dark Legacies not only provides all new low-magic mechanics for spellcasting (including casting difficulty, spellcasting strain, spellcasting failure side-effects, and corrupting taint) but also provides all new spells in keeping with the mood of a low magic setting, as well as all new rules for demonic and holy items of power, which replace magic items. Hope that sheds some light.

 

[Baragos]

If I may throw in some weight (a few grams at least) I'd like to support the previous poster. I just got the Campaign Guide for Dark Legacies in the mail a few days ago and may need to get a new copy soon, as I've been drooling a little too much I'm afraid. I already had the Player's Guide, with the magic rules, and they are fantastic for this sort of game. No longer fire-n-forget Vancian magic, but skill based, draining energy (in the form of non-lethal damage and sometimes even ability damage).

The Campaign Guide provides some rules that make magic items kewl. Most magic items have some nasty drawbacks, such as a possessing demon or similar. I don't want to use a magic item if it's not necessary, similar to Iron Heroes...

 

[Stormborn]

Personally I prefer a system that uses somethign other than nonleathal damage or ability damage to make it "low magic." As none exist that I know of for d20 I have had tomake my own. Since its forethcoming in a book by Highmoon I wont divulge much of it here.

But I can give a suggestion.
Find a spell system that uses skill based magic and set DCs for what you feel are effects that are roughly equivalent to spell levels. For any spell cast of DC X then the caster must spend Magic Points Y. Magic Points are gained through certain specific ritual activites that can be as complex as your campaign needs, and which can be different for every single caster. Costs can be adjusted up or down in conjuction with replinshment rates to set a certain feel or level of magic. Further, spells known can be limited either by feats or by an ability score.

Noone knows too many spells, but spells can be powerful if need be but costly. The real key is enforcing the rituals needed for magic points (whatever you choose to call them.)

Or go buy Unknown Armies (not d20) and use its magic system.