Lower Level combat & grind

[Goonalan]

I guess:
half level bonus - this alone allows players to keep up with monsters, the rest is extra:

- magic items (+1 assumed by second level, at least with inherent bonuses)
- feats (superior weapon, implement or expertise could be added)
- utility powers (direct bonus or easier way of getting CA)
- you can now also face lower level monsters, not everything is better than you... (I wan´t monsters of level zero btw.)

all in all, your accuracy can easily increase by 2-3 points when levelling up from 1 to 2. If you play with inherent bonuses, all of them come at the same time...

first level PCs are indeed very fragile.

That's it in a nutshell, and at low level that's a great leap forward, particularly noticeable when its the difference between hitting and missing- my point at Paragon Levels the PCs tend to connect a lot, and same PCs- not done the maths as of yet, but hitting is not really the problem- not doing enough damage quickly enough and getting hit back tend to be the problems.

As to taking damage, this from the same thread-

Total HP damage inflicted by PCs

94 Phrenic (average 3.24/turn)
145 Kaspard (average 2.59/turn)
195 McGyver (average 7.22/turn)
385 Dirty (average 6.88/turn)
475 Grey (average 8.48/turn)
581 Winstanley (average 10.38/turn)

Total HP damage absorbed by PCs

70 Kaspard (average 1.25/turn)
74 Winstanley (average 1.32/turn)
90 Grey (average 1.61/turn)
119 McGyver (average 4.41/turn)
125 Phrenic (average 4.31/turn)
220 Dirty (average 3.93/turn)

+/- combining the above two set of results.

-31 Phrenic (-1.07/turn)
+75 Kaspard (+1.34/turn)
+76 McGyver (+2.81/turn)
+165 Dirty (+2.95/turn)
+385 Grey (+6.87/turn)
+507 Winstanley (+9.06/turn)

That's for Level 1 in total.

At the end of KOTS-

Total Encounters: 24 (Combat 22, Skill Challenge 1 & Traps 1).
Sessions: 6, although the last was very short.
Time to play: 1145 Minutes, or 19 hours and 5 minutes.
Total Turns spent in Combat: 139.
Average Encounter: PC Level +1.55.
Total XP from Combat Encounters: 19859.
Average # Turns/Encounter: 6.32.
Average Time/Encounter: 52.05 or 52 Minutes 3 Seconds.
Average Time/Turn: 8.24 or 8 Minutes 14 Seconds.

1) Which PC got attacked the most?

Dirty 200 times. (42.5% of all attacks).
Phrenic 111 times. (23.6%)
Winstanley 59 times. (12.5%)
Kaspard 54 times. (11.5%)
Grey 46 times. (9.8%)

Who'd be a Defender?

2) Which PC got hit the most?

Dirty 95 times. (39.1% of all hits).
Phrenic 56 times. (23%)
Grey 32 times. (13.2%)
Kaspard 31 times. (12.8%)
Winstanley 29 times. (11.9%)

3) Which PC took the most Hits as a % of Attacks?

Grey 69.57% of Attacks were Hits.
Kaspard 57.41%
Phrenic 50.45%
Winstanley 49.15%
Dirty 47.5%

4) Which PC did the most Damage in total?

Grey 1586 points of damage.
Winstanley 1339.
Dirty 1216.
Kaspard 781.
Phrenic 587.

So much for the Striker...

5) Which PC took the most Damage in total?

Dirty 726.
Phrenic 515.
Grey 218.
Winstanley 182.
Kaspard 172.

6) Which PC did the most damage/turn on average?

Grey 11.41 points of damage/turn.
Winstanley 9.63
Dirty 8.75.
Kaspard 5.62.
Phrenic 5.24.

7) Which PC took the most damage/turn on average?

Dirty 5.22 points of damage/turn.
Phrenic 4.6.
Grey 1.57.
Winstanley 1.31.
Kaspard 1.24.

8) Which PC made the most attacks?

Grey 251 attacks.
Dirty 145.
Kaspard 145.
Winstanley 132.
Phrenic 113.

9) Which PC Hit the most?

Grey 166 Hits.
Winstanley 100.
Kaspard 85.
Dirty 80.
Phrenic 65.

10a) Best Connection Rate for Attacks.
(Minimum 10 Attacks)

93.33% Winstanley Deft Strike.
81.25% Winstanley Positioning Strike.
72.53% Winstanley Sly Flourish.
70.37% Grey Scorching Burst.
69.57% Grey Fire Shroud.
68.18% Kaspard Turn Undead.
66.67% Dirty Charge Maul.
& Phrenic Leaf on the Wind.
65.22% Kaspard Sacred Flame.
63.64% Grey Ray of Frost.
62.22% Grey Burning Hands.
60.61% Phrenic Viper's Strike.
60% Dirty Reaping Strike.
& Grey Magic Missile.
58.62% Dirty Cleave.
57.89% Kaspard Lance of Faith.
57.14% Dirty Brute Strike.
54.55% Phrenic Scorching Blast.
50% Dirty Spinning Sweep.
36.36% Dirty AoO Maul.
& Kaspard Healing Strike.

10b) Best Connection Rate for Attacks (same table).
(Minimum 25 Attacks)

72.53% Winstanley Sly Flourish.
70.37% Grey Scorching Burst.
65.22% Kaspard Sacred Flame.
62.22% Grey Burning Hands- 45 Attacks rolled.
60.61% Phrenic Viper's Strike- 33 Attacks rolled.
60% Dirty Reaping Strike- 35 Attacks rolled.
& Grey Magic Missile- 45 Attacks rolled.
58.62% Dirty Cleave- 29 Attacks rolled.
54.55% Phrenic Scorching Blast- 33 Attacks rolled.

10c) Best Connection Rate for Attacks (same table again).
(Minimum 50 Attacks)

72.53% Winstanley Sly Flourish- 91 Attacks rolled.
70.37% Grey Scorching Burst- 108 Attacks rolled.
65.22% Kaspard Sacred Flame- 69 Attacks rolled.

Pretty dependent on only a few attack modes?

11) Overall PC Connection Rate

Winstanley 75.76%
Grey 66.14%
Kaspard 58.62%
Phrenic 57.52%
Dirty 55.17%

12) Which PC used the most Action Points?

15 Dirty & Winstanley.
12 Grey.
11 Kaspard.
8 Phrenic.

13) Which PC used the most Healing Surges in Combat?

33 Dirty.
24 Phrenic.
9 Grey.
7 Winstanley.
4 Kaspard.

13) Which PC used the most Daily Powers?

12 Dirty.
10 Winstanley.
6 Phrenic.
5 Kaspard.
3 Grey.

14) Which PC was reduced to 0 HP or less the most?

3 Phrenic.
2 Dirty & Winstanley.
1 Grey.
0 Kaspard.

15) Which PC rolled the most Crits?

12 Dirty.
6 Winstanley.
5 Phrenic.
2 Grey.
1 Kaspard.

Who'd be a Fighter, you get hit all the time, you hit less than you think you should (and all the other PCs) and when you miss you have bugger all else to do... You spend Action Points and Dailies more than anyone else just to get a chance to make more hits and/or stay alive.

In-game Dirty is our favourite character- he does that thing, he's played mean and surly, and nasty; and he takes everything that's thrown at him.

Cheers Goonalan

 

[Pickles JG]

I hope you track these numbers electronically. They are pretty interesting (Oh I am sad too).

On defenders & sort of on topic I love playing my fighter. I have a lot of burst attacks so I get to roll a lot of attacks which compensates for my average accuracy (16 STR +2 prof + talent) & lack of CA - as I am usually not manoevring for that, willingly conceding it to, or setting up, a striker or just not being able to get it on my burst.
I mark hit or miss - thus achieving something. I really like to get hit - I have masses of HP & surges & even some self healing (& minor SW as a Dwarf) so using my HP not the strikers' is win.

I find strikers the most frustrating to play. They tend to do nothing but damage & missing does zip & even dailies lose some of that damage. Other classes have more "effects" that work regardless or like fighters do their jobs without hitting - minor heals & buffs that leaders get for example. If you are rolling well then they are great but when you are not they seem to suck more.

Most strikers can mitigate their accuracy issues. Avengers & Rangers roll twice. Rogues can have very high proficiency, target NADs & relentlessly seek CA. Sorcerers have AOEs which give more even results with more rolls.
Warlocks have slightly more issues CA is harder to get. Flanking is not always as good as advertised above (provoking an AO -> mark punishment means the monster is free to hit the warlock again on its own turn without the mark effect).

Anyway going from level 1 to 2 seems to have the biggest impact. You often gain +3 (or +2) to hit & the monsters you fight are the same mix of level 1-3. If you are getting fed up I should beg for some XP

 

[Goonalan]

I hope you track these numbers electronically. They are pretty interesting (Oh I am sad too).

These days in game we employ (and I mean employ) one of the PCs kids to keep the notes, it's remarkably easy- 'Dirty-Cl-GA1-9-M' = Dirty Cleave Goblin Archer 1 9 damage Marked. We have codes for everything.

It's worked well for us because the kids have now formed there own party, and because they've sat in on so many games they kinda knew many of the rules ahead of time- they put their parents to shame (often).

Jonathan (9)- No dad you can't do that you're marked, he'll get a free attack.

Iaain (approaching 50)- Oh right, thanks for that.

On defenders & sort of on topic I love playing my fighter. I have a lot of burst attacks so I get to roll a lot of attacks which compensates for my average accuracy (16 STR +2 prof + talent) & lack of CA - as I am usually not manoevring for that, willingly conceding it to, or setting up, a striker or just not being able to get it on my burst.
I mark hit or miss - thus achieving something. I really like to get hit - I have masses of HP & surges & even some self healing (& minor SW as a Dwarf) so using my HP not the strikers' is win.

Yeah Bursts are great for the Defenders- leaves all of the bad guys soldiers/brutes/skirmishers Marked- and ends up triggering lots more AoO as the Strikers manouevre to generate AoO.

I find strikers the most frustrating to play. They tend to do nothing but damage & missing does zip & even dailies lose some of that damage. Other classes have more "effects" that work regardless or like fighters do their jobs without hitting - minor heals & buffs that leaders get for example. If you are rolling well then they are great but when you are not they seem to suck more.

I noticed this in a previous campaign (before I started keeping the stats), our Thief seemed to do a wedge of damage till paragon and then everyone just plain caught up with him and he struggled for a good while. Having said that Winstanley is still in play in P1 and he does a shed load of damage on his Action Point (sneak attack again) turns- especially with a Burst thrown in for good measure.

Most strikers can mitigate their accuracy issues. Avengers & Rangers roll twice. Rogues can have very high proficiency, target NADs & relentlessly seek CA. Sorcerers have AOEs which give more even results with more rolls.
Warlocks have slightly more issues CA is harder to get. Flanking is not always as good as advertised above (provoking an AO -> mark punishment means the monster is free to hit the warlock again on its own turn without the mark effect).

Anyway going from level 1 to 2 seems to have the biggest impact. You often gain +3 (or +2) to hit & the monsters you fight are the same mix of level 1-3. If you are getting fed up I should beg for some XP

+2 is in short a 10% increase in your chance to hit, which at lower level often translates as 10% more hits.

Goonalan

 

[Spatula]

but even the guys who would have multiple attacks (and/or higher combat bonuses) in previous editions

My experience with AD&D is that (barring weapon specialization, which is an amazing combat boost) 1st level characters generally need a 13-14 to hit a monster, which can result in some frustrating combats. IIRC, everyone starts off with a THAC0 of 20, and bonuses to hit are hard to come by. 3e is different in that attack bonuses easier to get, but monster ACs are a bit higher too, I think (or maybe it just felt that way).

IOW, most of our attack rolls simply fail, and this has been typical of our combats.

Now, this is, of course, in part due to the nature of the game, the randomization factor of the dice. However, additional chances or higher attack bonuses for certain classes would seem to improve the odds of PCs actually succeeding with their attacks.

Thoughts? Observations?

Sounds like a lot of bad luck. We have a couple of players in our group who consistently roll < 10 on d20. It's pretty frustrating, but it would be in any version of D&D. Perhaps it feels more frustrating in 4e because that miss corresponds to the loss of a valuable resource.

Rangers, avengers, tempest fighters, and anyone with area-of-effect attacks get additional chances to hit. Most fighter builds have higher attack bonuses. Any weapon-using class has the option to trade off damage for accuracy via weapon choice. At the extreme end, a 1st level rogue with an 20 DEX has a +9 to hit with daggers (+11 with CA which the rogue should almost always have), and can target Reflex at-will with the proper exploit. Spellcasters, unfortunately, have far fewer options for boosting their accuracy unconditionally.

Monster choice matters a lot. My first 4e game, the DM started off by throwing what I think were orc warriors (lvl 9 minion) at us. We were first level... Higher level monsters and/or soldiers can really drag the combat down as the players feel like they can't hit and can't be missed.

Anyway, vs appropriate-level monsters, I don't recall any real issues with missing at low levels. Just strings of bad luck.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, we did have a starlock in that first campaign, and I think he was trying for the same combo as the OP. He, too, missed a lot, and I'm not sure his daily spell (which did no damage on a miss!) ever hit. But really that was mostly the fault of his dice.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

FWIW, the combo in question is Dreadful Word (doing 2d8 + Cha mod, plus penalty of 1 + Int mod to target's Will...in this PCs case, a net penalty of -3) encounter power followed by his daily, Dread Star (3d6 + Cha mod, plus immobilized, plus -2 penalty to Will).

 

[Piratecat]

In case it hasn't been linked yet, this thread by stalker0 is pure gold.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/254630-stalker0s-guide-anti-grind.html

 

[jbear]

Sorry, off topic.

Thank you nnms for the correction.

That is the title of the book in question in spanglish. I am a fluent speaker of spanglish since having lived so long in Spain and been unable to read books in english. Actually I think as time goes on I will eventually forget how to speak, read and write in english altogether so this may be the last you here from me.

I doubt even the quote is accurate as it was also translated (by me).

I may even change that ... or i might just leave it, because ever since you pointed out my error it has taken on new meaning. It has history now.

Returning you back to the thread now.

Move along.

 

[Someone]

I'm new to this edition and in my limited experience low level combat is a boring string of misses, piddly damage and lots and lots of insignificant conditions and bits of info that have to be accounted for. So far it isn't impressing me.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Why do I always wonder, why lower level combat would steal christmas?