Lycanthrope - 4th level character with 6 HD?

[The Souljourner]

OK, here's the deal. I want a lycanthropic character in an upcoming campaign, specifically a weretiger. So I was looking at the template, and ... it's a very odd template.

The template says "hitdice as the animal or base creature, whichever produces the higher hitpoint total". Does that mean if you put this template on a first level human fighter, he'd have 6 hitdice at 4th character level? (assuming we use Savage Species' +3 ECL) And that if he then gained 5 more fighter levels, he'd still have 6 hitdice (but maybe better hitpoints, because you use the better of the two?) And if you gain levels... what happens to your BAB?

Also... do your modified stats in the alternate forms give added hitpoints or change your saves?

What a pain!

-The Souljourner

 

[gtJormungand]

That's probably why it'll be changed for 3.5e, but I don't remember the details exactly. They are, however, supposedly listed in Races if Faerun.

 

[LeifVignirsson]

And I quote...

From Races of Faerun, page #144

Hit Dice and Hit Points: Same as character plus those of the animal. To calculate total hit points, apply CON mods according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form. For example, a human commoner with a CON score of 11 as a human and a CON score of 15 as a wolf has 1d4 plus 2d8+4 hit points.

So, as a Weretigger... er, tiger... You would add the HD for your class, 6d8 for the animal form and any difference for the CON mods.

And from page #146

Racial Hit Dice: A lycanthrope adds the Hit Dice of her animal form to her base Hit Dice for race, level, and class. This modifies the lycanthrope's base attack and base saving throws accordingly.

With that you see that it affects your attacks and saves, HOWEVER you know that as with the Savage Species book, you will be playing as a EL7 character in an EL1 campaign. That gives your DM the right to level it out a bit to make it tougher on you, but it might be murder on your fellows PC's.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

For a Campaign with Starting ECL 1, Lycanthropes are either to be banned, or you make a monster class for them, as seen in savage species.

 

[The Souljourner]

Thanks. Interesting.. I would guess that since the ECL is +3, the final adjustment would be +9 (6 for HD and 3 of level adjustment). Hrm.... let's try an acid test... Were-tiger Fighter 1 vs. barbarian 10. (assume 16 str, 14 con in base form)

barbarian: BAB +10, melee attack bonus +15 (raging), hp 9d12+12 (max at 1st)+40 = 111 hp, uncanny dodge x2

Were-tiger: BAB +5, melee attack bonus +14, hp 12 + 6d8 + 30 = 70hp, scent, pounce, improved grab (although only on creatures size small or smaller).

Overall, it seems clear the barbarian is far superior.

The animal hitdice and constitution modifer that only applies to those hit dice really make this a crappy template. The whole "start with ECL = #of hitdice" is crap, in my opinion, especially when you're starting with animal hit dice. They shouldn't count as full level modifiers, since they're strictly inferior even to warrior levels.

Let's try ECL +7, just for sheets and giggles.

human 8th level barbarian vs human weretiger fighter 1

Barb: BAB +8, melee AB +13 (when raging), hp 12 + 7d12 + 32 (when raging) = 90 hitpoints

Weretiger is as above. Now this seems a lot more balanced. Weretiger gets a few cool abilities, and a lot of damage, but at the expense of 3 BAB (though the strength more than overcomes that, it's still the loss of three levels until multiple attacks are possible), 20 hitpoints, uncanny dodge x2, and 3 feats.

That sounds much more balanced.

So here's my suggestion, animal hitdice should count for 3/4 of an ECL, so their ECL is equal to their BAB. They're just too crappy otherwise. That would make the Lycanthrope 4 (for hitdice) +3 for level adjustment. Which seems pretty fair, given my acid tests here.

-The Souljourner

 

[thundershot]

Actually, I think RoF says that infected have an ECL of the animal HD + 1, and natural are +2. So that's an ECL of 8 right out the door. Yes, I'd definitely say take that and divide the abilities by 8 levels and see what happens. Though you'll likely have to have a smaller tiger form, or just won't be able to change INTO that form until you have the 6th HD... Hm...



Chris

 

[mkarol]

As a follow up; The 'Abilities and Racial features' (pg 145-6) says that the level adjustment for afflicted is +1 and natural +2 and that the _natural_ lycanthrope adds the animal form HD and that effects the ECL.

the templete (pg 144-5) says that the ecl is +1 afflicted and +2 natural. In addition the _charchter_ adds the animal HD...

... so my question is, does an Afflicted Lycanthrope add the animal HD and affect the ECL the same way? So if my 4th lvl fighter is bitten by a werewolf (wolf = 2HD) and is now afflicted with lycanthropy, is he ECL 5 (and 4HD) or ECL 7 (and 6HD)?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

4 HD Fighter, 2 HD Wolf, +1 ECL Lycanthrope. Your char now has 6 HD and is ECL 7