John Q. Mayhem
Explorer
*Does a little dance*
Yay!
Yay!
Lyceian Arcana teasers
Archus is doing a happy snoopy dance.RangerWickett said:
Combined with a class construction kit inspired by:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82858&page=1&pp=20
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2909&
And I should have some ways to balance the whole thing.
Well I just got BTN and was tinkering with the idea of using it. I'm betting you would remove the BTN spellcasting costs and replace them with EoMR costs. The breakdown could be as simple as assigning a cost for each .5 spellcaster level or figuring out costs for each of the following that could be bought separately:RuleMaster said:
* Maximum Spell MP
* Spell Lists Known
* Magic Points
* Cantrips Per Day
* Signature Spells - this could further be broken down into signature spells that require you to know the spell list and those that don't.
For some of these costs I'd start at the cost of making charged items. To make a Renewable Mana Battery like a
* 1st Level caster:: 1 Max * 5 MP * 20 XP = 100 XP
* 10th level caster: 10 Max * 95 MP * 20 XP = 19000 XP
* 20th level caster: 20 Max * 370 MP * 20 XP = 148000 XP
The above costs represent the following fractions of the points availabe at the level:
* 1st 100/1500 = 6.7%
* 10th 19000/46,500 = 40.7%
* 20th 148000/191,500 = 77.3%
Seems a bit steep. Right now I don't have the stomach for much more math - just finished a 2.5 hr Finance exam. If anyone has ideas I'd love to hear them.
The other class creation system I might use can be found at:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1915725#post1915725
http://www.arcanearcade.com/wiki/index.php/D20ClassConstruction/D20ClassConstruction
In this system you have X points per level to spend on advancements. A minimum advancement is given for 0 points in HD, BAB, Saves, Skill Points, and Defense (the option from unearthed arcana) you then pay to improve those progressions or add other things such as magic level or special abilities.
Much simpler to deal with and you always get some minimum advancement in each of the areas plus some disgresionary points to spend for special abilities. This method seems easier to keep track of to me. Honestly I'm just looking for a way to balance the classes and make new ones - the thought of having some of my players pick and choose abilities and by spending xp in a point buy system frightens me (for several reasons).
--Archus
You are right - I'd like to simply exchange those systems. I'm in favor of parting everything in little bits, because it means to be able to get rid of the Practiced Spellcaster problem. But I don't understand the last part with Signature Spells - where in the rules does stand, that you don't need to know all spell lists for creating (and thus casting) a Signature Spell?Archus said:
Sorry, but I'm no use with this kind of math - while I always had good marks, I'm not good in tinkering, how to find out the right formula... I'm a math applier, not an inventor.
Actually, I don't like fractional points - you could multiply everything by ten and then you would have a bit more of flexibility. Second thing is, that I don't like the idea of giving points only out, if you earn enough XP - the point of a classless system is to have a smooth transition, isn't it? At least, you are ditching the d4 with the system - a single fireball with average damage shouldn't kill wizards without exceptional high hitpoints with one stroke.
The wish of having a common baseline is understandable. BTN can be used in this way, too. But I'm searching for a really free system, allowing me to use all my favorite systems at ones: BTN, EoMR and Upper_Krust's excellent CR-system. You don't seem to have seen his PDF, which details a late RC-version, so I've sent it to your webmaster address. (BTW, Ryan, I was the one, who mailed it to you - next time I'll include my nick.) But how are those BTN-formula converted to UK-CR or back? I'm not sure, if it is so easy, as it seems to me. And why is it a frightening thought anyways?
RuleMaster said:
I thought you would need to know an appropriate spell list to make it a signature spell. I suppose you could just have X signature spells and you can fill that slot with:
* A spell from a spell list you know
* A spell from a book you find.
One thing I wanted to have was a "fixed" signature spell that you couldnt' just willy nilly swap out with something from a book.
A minor spellcaster with only signature spells could be used for some racial spell like abilities.
RuleMaster said:
During my upcoming vacation I'll sit down with BTN and figure out the rough cost for wizards and clerics under that system and try to approximate out something for EoMR.
RuleMaster said:
I wasn't really trying to get rid of character classes, more have a build your own character class system. I understand the appeal of a build your character as you go, but a baseline of ability that you improve upon is nice IMHO. So I wasn't going to hand out points - you would get XP and go up levels. When a new level was achieved you would get to spend the improvement points. I'd expect most people to choose their BAB, HD, Skill Points, Saves, and Magic progressions and then have some discretionary points to spend for special abilities, feats, etc. Then I'd only have to deal with people tinkering with characters every session.
I really wanted to get rid of the d4 hit point issue. One thing that I've gathered from BTN is that the creator made some assumptions that character classes were balanced and I've never bought that. I'm also not sure I like the increasing costs of feats when compared to the relatively fixed costs for special abilities. While feats keep increasing quadratically with the number you have, the special abilities are just fixed - so people will have more special abilities than feats. It would be easy enough to make the cost of feats increase linearly.
More reading of BTN is needed to make a real opinion.
RuleMaster said:
Thanks for sending the CR-system, it is pretty nice.
What frightens me about having some of my players use BTN is manyfold:
* Some would abuse the system
* Some would be completly stymied and unable to customize their characters. Having the standard classes there to just buy would help.
Sorry, but you seem to have misunderstood the RAW. You can have only signature spells with spell lists, you know of. The spells in books are signature spells, because you can write only signature spells down in books, but you can only memorize spells from books - reserving a certain amount of MP only for each use of the book spell. Allowing a race to cast a signature spell as special ability is a spell-like ability normal D&D - giving a race MP and spell lists to choose from is not the normal way.Archus said:
What I said.
*Does a happy dance*
Would it be possible to achieve both at the same time?
Why should this prevent tinkering between sessions?
I hope, that you can fix the issues (like having no LA taken into account). Search for reviews to see them themselves and look www.stcooleypublishing.com in the forum for some extra info.
My pleasure. Through it, I knew that not all classes are equal, but with BTN it looks, that Fighter and Cleric are even more further away than they should. I was suspicicious of some incompatibilities between them, but it is nice to see, that someone knows that there exist. BTW, what are the underlying assumptions, you talked about?
Only these two? How can two reasons be manyfold?
The last point, having a package, is always good, especially for new players, which need reduced amounts of options. And the power of abuse is already available - look at the wizard boards and you'll see ridicilous builds, capable of doings hundred points of damage. I don't see, how you can further this with these rules. Maybe buying ability increases through XP, which are saved through more focusing on one thing. But wouldn't this overspecialization weaken the character? I really like to see a proof for your statement.RuleMaster said:
With premade packages (like at the end of BTN), you could have both a flexable system and premade "classes"
RuleMaster said:
Well my thought was they would only tinker once per level, instead of every session. Of course I could just hand out XP every few sessions if I wanted to keep the tinkering down.
RuleMaster said:
LA should be out soon, but even without it the pieces (Max MP, Spell Lists, Cantrips, and MP) should remain essentially the same.
RuleMaster said:
The cleric has always been my pet peeve. They are outrageously overpowered.
RuleMaster said:Only these two? How can two reasons be manyfold?
Yeah you can make some outrageous characters with stock d20. I am a little concerned about people buying just HP, Saves, and BAB and nothing more if they want to be a combat machine. I may institute limits based on the effective level (much like mutants and masterminds). You can only have a number of HD equal to your effective level, only EL + 3 in a skill, etc.
As mentioned above, having a package of abilities like at the end of BTN would help new players. You want to be a wizard... just buy these things.
Right now I'm entering the number of points the various casters spend per level in BTN so I can roughly approx what an EoMR would need to spend. I'll probably have the primary cost driver be the Max MP. Something similar to the cost of BAB might be appropriate. Then buying spell lists and MP might have a fixed and linear cost.
The parts of BTN I don't like on a casual read:
* How the costs of feats increases when compared to buying special abilities. Abilities have a linear cost (300 * Level) but feats have a quadratic cost (50 * # * #-1). I'd rather feats have a linear or even fixed cost. Feat trees are what make make some feats more expensive than others.
* I'd rather the order of purchasing abilities not matter. For HD and weapon proficiencies, you are better off buying them early but most other things don't matter. I'd probably just have weapon proficiencies have a fixed cost. Hell I'd like weapon proficiencies to just be a Feat as they are in d20 and to have a fixed cost.
* Attribute increases may need to be a little different if you begin pulling in monster levels.
Hmm, this is getting pretty off topic. Maybe I'll start a thread for BTN and EoMR and take some of my griping to the BTN forums.
--Archus
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Arrg, I meant with LA not Lyceian Arcana, but Level Adjustment. Stupid Abbraviations...Archus said:
Otherwise no one would play them.
That would make them like the standard classes. But this wouldn't allow Kagome, the girl from Inuyasha. Kagome has probably few hit dice, but is a devil with the bow - better than even masters with this weapon.
I'm wondering, why you have such a different view in opposite to The_Sigil regarding these points. He said, that these formula presented the best fit for his numbers... But I'll look to the BTN forums just to see your griping. ;-)As mentioned above, having a package of abilities like at the end of BTN would help new players. You want to be a wizard... just buy these things.
Right now I'm entering the number of points the various casters spend per level in BTN so I can roughly approx what an EoMR would need to spend. I'll probably have the primary cost driver be the Max MP. Something similar to the cost of BAB might be appropriate. Then buying spell lists and MP might have a fixed and linear cost.
The parts of BTN I don't like on a casual read:
* How the costs of feats increases when compared to buying special abilities. Abilities have a linear cost (300 * Level) but feats have a quadratic cost (50 * # * #-1). I'd rather feats have a linear or even fixed cost. Feat trees are what make make some feats more expensive than others.
* I'd rather the order of purchasing abilities not matter. For HD and weapon proficiencies, you are better off buying them early but most other things don't matter. I'd probably just have weapon proficiencies have a fixed cost. Hell I'd like weapon proficiencies to just be a Feat as they are in d20 and to have a fixed cost.
* Attribute increases may need to be a little different if you begin pulling in monster levels.
Hmm, this is getting pretty off topic. Maybe I'll start a thread for BTN and EoMR and take some of my griping to the BTN forums.
RuleMaster said:
I found "Point Buy Numbers" for d20 modern derived from BTN that has level adjustment costs:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10850.phtml
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=3690&
I haven't crunched the numbers there and would rather be able to buy racial abilities in pieces. So I'll be crunching away using the Upper_Krust stuff you sent me.
RuleMaster said:
Plenty would still play clerics since they have healing. I also observed that in Arcana Unearthed, where they have no clerics, that all the magic using classes are attractive for different reasons even though they all get access to healing (Greenbonds are just better at it).
RuleMaster said:
Very good point and there are times I miss that about d20. I worry a little about some players powergaming they hell out of that, but they would always have a weakness. I also worry about some players forgetting to buy some things.
To get Kagome, you would need to break up the cost of BAB into at least ranged and melee.
RuleMaster said:
"Point Buy Numbers" actually had some of my same complaints and have a flat increase in cost for Saves and Feats. I'll be using that.
I'm putting together a spreadsheet to watch the costs on various builds of the classes. As long as things are approximate to core d20 within a reasonable range I'll be happy. If things get a little wonky past 15th level, I won't sweat it - as Upper_Krust's analysis shows the higher level CRs are too low anyway (certainly the Bodak my group encountered was way more powerful than the CR indicated).
I may just write a C# program to do character builds - excel can drive me a little batty.
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