M&M 2nd Edition: Underwhelmed?

[Kylara]

I'm saying that Enworld is much much friendlier, opposing views are tolerated, if not debated. Over there, people just tell them flat out that they are wrong, and ignore any points that they would bring up. Before any critiscisms, you have to post a few hundred word term paper on how you love the game before you can critiscize it just to get anyone to read or respond to your points.

 

[Elric]

I'm saying that Enworld is much much friendlier, opposing views are tolerated, if not debated. Over there, people just tell them flat out that they are wrong, and ignore any points that they would bring up. Before any critiscisms, you have to post a few hundred word term paper on how you love the game before you can critiscize it just to get anyone to read or respond to your points.

Care to point out a single time on The Atomic Think Tank where someone posted a criticism of M&M 2e, didn't post a few hundred words on why they love the game, and then didn't get any replies to their post?

This is simply you projecting your own willingness to fight onto everyone else.

 

[Bretbo]

I'm saying that Enworld is much much friendlier, opposing views are tolerated, if not debated. Over there, people just tell them flat out that they are wrong, and ignore any points that they would bring up. Before any critiscisms, you have to post a few hundred word term paper on how you love the game before you can critiscize it just to get anyone to read or respond to your points.

First off, I find your term "tolerated" to be quite insulting. The Atomic Think Tank may vigorously defend 2nd edition, but criticisms of 2ed and love of 1ed is not berated. Disagreements and debate arise, yes; but "intolerance" is not what happens there.

You might be missing an important fact, forums for a particular system are frequently visited by fans; that is kinda the point. I bet if you go to WoTC's Forum and criticize and debate the value of 3rd edition, you'll get the same result as you've them at the Atomic Think Tank. Go to any forum by a company for a given game and you'll see that. That is just the nature of the beast. Its' like going into a sports bar in a city that has a major league team and yelling out that the home team sucks...what do you think would happen?

Folks who debate the merits of 1st edition passionately, but in a non-hostile way are always welcome there. Unfortunately most of those threads thus far have gotten quite hostile and sent the wrong message that debate and love of 1st ed. was not acceptable. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

For what its' worth, I'm a Moderator on that forum and know something of what I write. Although I occasionally find I've missed something. :\

 

[Jim Hague]

I'm going to be buying the Masterminds Manual too, and I would have regardess, that doesn't mean that I think you should have to buy it to get to play the character you want instead of altering the character to what powers are availible in the core book.

That's like complaining that there's not Core Class x in the PHB; lack of optional rules doesn't make the book incomplete. I can't think of any character that couldn't be made out of the core book. If you can, I'm willing to hear what concepts you've had trouble with, and why.

 

[Kanegrundar]

So far, I've really enjoyed M&M 2E. I can understand to a point about the lack of rules for building custom powers, however, I haven't had any problem building all sorts of way out powers from simply using combinations of powers listed in the rulebook. It took a bit to get my head wrapped around it entirely, but once I saw that I could accurately build a Rogue, Absorbing Man, El Aguila, and so forth with the rules as given, I was hooked.

 

[Aaron2]

I can understand to a point about the lack of rules for building custom powers ...

I can but only to a limited extent. Hero 5th Edition, for example, is almost 400 pages long and only includes two paragraphs about creating your own power. Earlier versions, including the version of Champions I started with, didn't discuss the issue at all. All that didn't stop me from making new powers anyway.

It is an interesting point as to whether power creation rules should be considered a standard part of a super-hero game. I'm not sure the case can be made since they invariably end up as "pick a power that is similar and base the new powers cost on it."

 

[Ranger REG]

That's like complaining that there's not Core Class x in the PHB; lack of optional rules doesn't make the book incomplete. I can't think of any character that couldn't be made out of the core book. If you can, I'm willing to hear what concepts you've had trouble with, and why.

Actually, it's the equivalent of not having a spell creation rules (or guidelines) in the three D&D core rulebook. Correct me if I'm wrong. The lack of such thing have made me resorted to the "eyeball-it-and-gauge" method.

This is a valid complaint. I personally would like a super-power creation rules, and I hope that such will be included in the upcoming Masterminds Manual or in a future [expanded and detailed rules] supplement very soon/early in 2006 (like MSH had the Ultimate Powers Book).

 

[Kylara]

That's like complaining that there's not Core Class x in the PHB; lack of optional rules doesn't make the book incomplete. I can't think of any character that couldn't be made out of the core book. If you can, I'm willing to hear what concepts you've had trouble with, and why.

I don't define the ability to create powers as optional in a Supers Game. They spoiled me with MnM 1E, they had powers, and an easily useable power creation system in the main book. I did not have expectations before Mutants and Masterminds 1E, I had them for 2E based on how amazingly good 1E was.

 

[Plane Sailing]

moderators notes: Just in case it needs saying, please everyone make an effort to remain civil - don't make judgements about what kind of a person someone is or what kind of an attitude you think they have - getting personal is what gets a thread into trouble.

Nobody here needs to defend their views - state them certainly, explain them more clearly if they wish to improve the clarity of their position sure, but defend them? Nope. Because we don't want anyone *attacking* anyone elses views.

Thanks

 

[Kylara]

Ranger Reg, the Power creation rules will be in the Masterminds Manual. My problem is however is that not only weren't they included in the Core, that the powers themselves are all built so variably. Some powers, different ranks do different things (Insubstantial, Super senses, Super movement, etc), others they increase the effect, others are pay x amount to get 5pp a rank to spend for variable things. This variability resists the ability to create powers if you don't have the design rules that Kenson used since its almost like there are a few systems jumbled together.