M&M: Bad First Session/All Or None

[Emiricol]

I happily throw Drive skill tests at parties without a single point in Drive. While I tailor things to allow PCs to use their good skills to shine, I never shy away from forcing a skill check where such a check would be appropriate. Let them spend an HP to get the Super Skill extra if they just *have* to persuade the guard to let them go. That's what HP are there for. Extra Effort is a good thing.

 

[billd91]

<snip>
At 1:1 in M&M if you've spent 3-4 precious PP on a skill, I, as the GM, had darnwell better USE that skill at SOME point to validate that choice for the player or, next time, he'll use those 3-4 points on another rank of BAB and get some USE outta it. So then, skills, become a PRESCRIPTION for me as the GM. I'm arm-bent into moving in to use those skills because if I don't they're useless and if they're useless they could have been "better" spent somewhere else in the PC make-up. In Modern, for instance, you spend those 3 points on Prof: Bouncer because it's there and seemed right and when I use it, it's enjoyably unexpected. Had it never come up, that player would have been equally happy bashing along with his powerhouse, not complaining that I let him "waste" those skill points.

Aspects like that are, really, why I've classically stayed AWAY from point-based games and have embraced flexible-class games like Grim Tales, because point-based PCs either become horribly predictable or become an exercise in predeterminism for the GM, where I MUST use every aspect of every PC to VALIDATE doing anything other than twinked out predictable builds.

--fje

Personally, I think you're making way too much of a big deal out of this. Some skills will naturally, in the course of play, come up more often than others. And the players will come up with ways to use the skills they've invested in. You don't need to validate their choices by contriving things to do based on the skills they've bought. They'll find ways to do it on their own.
You can certainly use their skill choices to generate fun ideas, but that shouldn't be looked at as a limiting chore. It's an opportunity to help one PC shine from time to time even if they don't all the time. It's an opportunity to toss specific situations at certain PCs to balance 'screen time' all the PCs get. But don't forget that the players might go in a completely different direction from the one you're planning when the time comes for them to use the skill in the situation you present.
I say use the skills to help generate ideas and don't sweat it. Let the players figure out how to bring their skills to bear most of the time.

 

[takyris]

Hey, Heap! Sorry your game was lousy. I actually had my first live M&M session a week ago, and it was fantastic. If you don't mind, I'd like to examine where things were different:

- I ran a game that I quite literally made up on the spot. I had mooks robbing a bank, and then I had a brick and a flying blaster robbing a high-tech research lab. Not exactly Shakespeare, as plots go, but my group liked it.

- I had the players come up with their own concepts, and then I built them on the spot (rapidly). I minmaxed heartlessly but simplistically. Energy Blast? +10. Protection? +10. Great. Done! Next! And so on.

- I did the same with the bad guys. I didn't even really stat the brick or the blaster. I just wrote down their physical stats, gave the Brick +10 in Super-Strength and Natural Weapon (which, I know, don't stack -- it was for flavor), as well as Regeneration and Protection. I gave the Blaster a good defense and Reflex save (and evasion), and a fire attack with the Area, Stun, and Dazzle extras. Pretty much a minmaxed nasty attack. Truly ugly.

Then my guys' PCs threw down. They enjoyed the heck out of things. At Protection 10 versus Strike (or Super-Strength or Energy Blast) 10, people were making those damage saves for low damage amounts a lot of the time -- and everybody took 1 or 2 hits. Nobody immediately got disabled, as happened with you. Also, I'd minmaxed my PCs' characters by giving them (with their permission) the Sacred Combat Feats: Power Attack, Accurate Attack, Combat Expertise, All-Out Attack, Rapid Attack, Move-By Attack. You might not need every one of those, but every comic-book hero needs a few of 'em. Power Attack is fantastic when you know that you're fighting someone who's easy to hit (like, say, a brick), and it's not limited to melee attacks. You can power attack with your blaster rifle -- it just means that you're going full-auto or tightening your beam or something like that. Accurate Attack is great for hitting speedsters that one critical time. All-Out Attack is awesome for the comic-book trope of "I'm leaving myself fully exposed, devoting everything to striking at the cost of my own defense". Move-By and Rapid Attack are just tactically intelligent.

Maybe my team had better luck than yours -- or maybe they just enjoyed playing their own characters. If this turns into a regular game in this world, I'm definitely un-min-maxing them ("Okay, explain to me why you have a BAB of +10. How is that part of your concept? Are you special forces or a lifelong martial artist or what?") and making sure that my bad guys are appropriate.

This is to say: If you tell your players "Okay, nobody should have max'd out Energy Blast or Protection unless that's their CORE concept -- if you're a speedster who ALSO throws energy blasts, that energy blast shouldn't be at +10," then you shouldn't give them a bad guy with +10 Protection. That's just not going to work. It sounds like part of your game problem was that you used the (non-minmaxed) archetype characters against your hastily made homebrews -- and the homebrews you hastily made were minmaxed, because it's a heck of a lot easier to just slap +10 onto the relevant powers than it is to go "Well, I feel this one should be at +7, and this extra should be flawed to only +3, and..." Also, you gave them a foe who had attacks none of them could counter (mental stuff). You wouldn't send a Blaster with Mental Protection and massive Area Attack powers (Damage, with the Stun, Snare, Dazzle, and Fatigue extras, for example) against a party of PCs who are all mentalists. That's... not gonna be pretty. It's gonna be FAST, but it's not gonna be pretty.

Dunno. Mostly thinking out loud. (I thought about giving my guys a mentalist, and then said, "Hm... nobody with any Will save worth mentioning... that wouldn't be fun for them," and decided not to.) Any of that help?

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Yea, Taky, that helps.



It's nice to hear from another first-timer. I think half the problem was I assumed the archetypes were pretty even-keeled and didn't really try to reverse-engineer them out to see where all the PPs went to make sure they were balanced. Then I built my OWN NPCs, which, yea, were min-maxed to hell.

As to giving them a baddy they couldn't handle ... I didn't build him specifically to kill them or anything. Actually I thought the concept villian Kalak The Mystic was reasonably cool, but at PL 20 he was sickly overpowered for anything other than a plot device, so I made a quick toned down sorceror, "Simon Ghash" and gave him what looked cool ...

In the end, I think the biggest turn-off for the group was that they thought we were test-driving M&M to use it to replace our current Pulp/Supers game using Blood and Vigilance. Which was never my intention. I had offered, when it was in the mail. I bought both games at the same time, but being PDF, BnV arrived at my computer IMMEDIATELY and, I guess, got the upper hand that way. They were anxious to get started, it did what I wanted and well, so I pretty much forgot I'd bought M&M ... it was delayed from Barnes and Noble a few times with a few text books I'd ordered.

So, when it arrived, I wanted to at least play it once, y'know. Just to see how it worked. I guess I didn't stress it enough that I wasn't going to switch systems on them mid-race.

'Course they didn't TELL me that was their fear until recently. Peh. So M&M got the kind of reception that's usually reserved for the boyfriends of women with teenaged children.

--fje

 

[Teflon Billy]

Correct. Dex/evasion guys are great and a lot of fun, but fear the area attack!

Throw a handfull of points into Combat Sense. You'll be fine

 

[Teflon Billy]

and spend the extra PPs in maxing out Con and Str and taking the parapalegic flaw for an extra 10 ... y'know, since you're in a mechanized suit anyway...

Why does every player in creation try to get Disadvantage points for somehting that is not disadvantageous in any way?

Mutants and Masterminds, pg 106. (Under the heading Weaknesses)

[bq]...Gamemasters should not allow players to exploit weaknesses just for the extra points. If you feel the weakness isn't likely to come up in play, or won't really limit or challenge the character, disallow it...[/bq]

 

[Shalimar]

Throw a handfull of points into Combat Sense. You'll be fine

Not really, combat sense just insures you keep dodge bonus, it doesn't help vs area attacks that ignore defense

 

[Teflon Billy]

Not really, combat sense just insures you keep dodge bonus, it doesn't help vs area attacks that ignore defense

But it allows you to use your Evasion feat to substitute your (likley) much better Reflex Save in place of your Damage Save.

 

[Shalimar]

But it allows you to use your Evasion feat to substitute your (likley) much better Reflex Save in place of your Damage Save.

That would be a houserule. Evasion lets you use reflex save to avoid damage which is explained as avoiding the attack. It also says there are circumstances under which you cannot avoid the attack, and in those cases you cannot apply evasion. Area attacks where if you succeed on a reflex save you avoid some of the damage, pretty much puts it where evasion wouldn't work.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

What would be more evil would to be allow the player to play the villain for the episode. Tell him before the game what your'e going to do so he's in on it. Your players will have a harder time figuring out he's possessed by an NPC if the GM isn't speaking for him. I've seen some doppleganger tricks like this that have confounded parties for weeks.

And it will give the player a chance to pound on his teammates with impunity.

Good idea. I might not do it, but it just seems like such a flavorful way to stress the validity of mental powers that I'm not sure I can resist. It will be the first session, so the player might not be too attached to his character yet. He can always just make a new one. If I have him run the villain, I can merely interject with side NPCs, mooks, etc, and maybe a common agenda. When the party defeats the villain, I can have him make up a new character with adjusted PPs to match the rest of the PCs.

The first time I saw the Possession power, this occured to me. Why would a PL 10 mental villain not seek out a PL10 body to inhabit, thereby effectively becoming a PL20 villain?