D&D 5E Mage Hand and the No Good, Low Down, Dirty Rotten Arcane Trickster

[Grakarg]

I'd say its a non-issue. I'd let him have the ability to disarm traps at no disadvantage.

Why?
The player thinks this is a cool ability of their character, my job as a DM is to give the players an opportunity to shine and have fun playing the characters they want to play by telling a fun story together.

As the DM, I get to decide how often this player's ability comes into play, because I decide how often traps are encountered.
I also get to decide what the traps do, how hard they are to find, and how hard they are to disable.

Since essentially I control everything in the environment of the players, there will likely be instances where the player doesn't realize a trap is there and springs it instead. As well as instances where they will get to use an ability they think is fun and cool.

In fact, since one of the players has basically said "I want to encounter traps and I have what I think is a fun way of getting past them", I'm actually MORE likely to put traps into the adventures, just to give him the opportunity to do just that. Most of the time traps don't really come up that often, maybe once every couple sessions or so. An ability like this affects the game a lot less than an ability that affects combat.

My 2 cents are to look at player choices like this and think about how you can use it to give them the opportunity to shine, and to make things difficult for them in ways they didn't expect as part of the story.

As the DM, you really have total control over everything in the first place, so there is no real need to force a confrontation with the player by also imposing disadvantage.

However, I'd maybe make an exception specific instances where I think it might add to the drama of an enounter... like they are doing it in the middle of a fight, are under time pressure, or can otherwise ratchet up the tension. Besides, that might give another character a chance to shine too (Cleric casts guidance, etc)

Cheers and Happy Gaming!

 

[clearstream]

Just kidding

The pertinent parts of the Mage Hand spell:

“…You can use your action to control the hand. You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial. You can move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it…” I, as DM, am using a Sage Advice adjudication from some years ago that Mage Hand can manipulate an object as if a human was doing so with one hand. So, you can throw a lever or knock a mug off a counter, but you can’t thread a needle.

And now for the point: I have ruled that the Arcane Trickster in my group will make any at distance Thievery checks using his Mage Hand at Disadvantage. My reasoning is A) Game balance, Mage Hand is a cantrip, the lowest level magic in the Game and B) there is absolutely no risk or drama if he makes every disable trap check or open locks check from 30ft away. I might as well never add a single trap to anything ever again.

Now, my player was a bit upset about my ruling and asked me to check around the boards. So, without further ado, I ask the august body of ENworlders: am I being too harsh on him?

I wouldn't apply disadvantage. The class description tells you that at 3rd level you can use it to disarm traps and use thieves tools at range. If that was intended to impose disadvantage the burden is on the rules writer to state it right there. If we supposed the contrary then *every* player ability must be said to have disadvantage whenever RAW is silent! Or if we don't think that, how do we decide other than picking and choosing which do, and which don't?

Conversely, a PC without the Arcane Trickster special should NOT be allowed to use Mage Hand that way. Not even with a disadvantage. Similarly to the above, if we supposed the contrary then all PCs should be allowed to help themselves to *every* ability. In asserting this I would also draw attention to the spell description which permits opening an unlocked container ergo not a locked one, with the normal use.

One is forced to suppose that anyone guarding valuables knows that their assailants might use magic. For example, instead of a trap activating with a trigger on the door, the trigger on the door deactivates it: if it isn't deactivated then it takes effect at a choke point further inside. As for fluff, demanding justification of this ability begs the question - what of all the other supernal class features?

 

[PnPgamer]

Sneak attack requires a finesse or ranged weapon for a reason. Allowing attack spells to do sneak attack damage would make the rogue severely overpowered.

Mearls did say on a sage advice tweet that it could be okay.

 

[transtemporal]

The reason you're nerfing this is because you don't like it. Doesn't need to be any more reason than that.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I think I'd start by asking why this bothers you?

How many traps do you have? Why are they there? Who built them and what's their purpose?

Depending on the placement and purpose, it's easy to place traps of all different types that will foil all types of possible attempts to disarm them. Plus, they still have to detect the trap in the first place. Then they still have to succeed at disarming it.

For example, in one adventure I had a collapsing walkway outside the entrance to a small cave in a sinkhole. The 40' long walkway/stairs were on the side of the sinkhole down to the doorway to what used to be a gnome's home (now occupied by orcs). There was a disabling switch disguised as part of a small tree nearby, as well as a mechanism in a small room to set and disarm it on the inside, where there was also a peephole so he could investigate if he heard something outside (or when somebody suspicious knocked on the door).

Careful inspection of the walkway showed that the supports had some play, and went into the side of the sinkhole through small holes slightly larger than them, rather than firmly attached as you'd expect. It was set off by a pressure plate in front of the cave mouth, which caused the spring-loaded supports to retract, and the hinged walkway to collapse.

The gnome could arm the trap from the top or the bottom, or disarm it to use the stairs. Failure dropped anything on the walkway into the sinkhole.

I generally don't use just a straight ability check, instead the PCs investigated the area (since they were naturally suspicious). If they didn't connect the dots themselves, I'd roll, possibly with advantage if they had found most of the important parts. If they detected the trap, then they'd go about trying to disarm it.

Even if using mage hands from a distance, if they failed their disarm check and accidentally set off the trap, anybody still on the walkway would fall into the sinkhole. In this case, the characters didn't have an Arcane Trickster, so that wasn't an issue, but they did fail the disarm check. I gave them a Dexterity check to try to grab onto the wooden walkway that had collapsed on the side of the wall, but they failed that as well.

The point is, I didn't have to go out of my way to build a punitive trap, nor one that was designed to specifically target those disarming a trap with magic or from a distance. But what if they did? It really doesn't matter. It still would slow them down and create an opportunity for them to be caught by the orcs. Maybe they just don't like the look of the walkway and decide to tie a rope to a tree and rappel down to the cave opening instead.

If they didn't set off the trap, that doesn't mean that they'd remember it was there on the way back out, particularly if they were in a hurry (being chased). Of course, once inside they'd likely find the room with the mechanism and that's pretty cool too. There was an intelligent creature that once lived here and built a defense for his home, and we're awesome and didn't get fooled.

Actually, the ranger (urchin with thieves' tools) did set off the trap, found themselves in the web of a group of spiders that had built their webs horizontally across the several hundred foot deep sinkhole shaft (incidentally making the use of fire against the webs a bad idea). They didn't figure that out either, but the druid had already shapechanged into a giant spider to get down to where the ranger was to rescue him and get back out. When they later discovered the mechanism inside the home, they set the trap, and later on the remaining orcs were fleeing the home and fell victim to it themselves, after having lived there for some time.

Essentially, the idea of a trap for me is something that they will likely overcome. Think of the opening scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark. There are a bunch of cool traps, some of which he set off. Indy escaped damage from all of them so they 'failed.' Except that it increased the tension and created a very dramatic scene, and if it were me, would have increased the satisfaction of being able to get the treasure out without getting killed.

He disarmed a couple of traps, and made a few Dexterity saves. Even if he had simply disarmed them all, they still serve the same purpose.

If one catches them anyway, hey, cool. Incidentally, I also have old traps that don't function as they were originally supposed to. A poison dart or needle where the poison is long gone, a huge scything blade with a dry-rotted shaft that breaks on impact, etc. Something where you can create a really deadly trap, but because of its age the PCs are able to survive it. An already triggered trap serves a similar purpose.

And by designing traps in an intelligent way, including some area type traps, or perhaps some traps triggered by other methods such as reading runes, or proximity of a specific type of creature, then they'll still get the PCs every once in a while, regardless of an Arcane Trickster.

Ilbranteloth

 

[neobolts]

Everyone else has already pointed out that Arcane Tricksters function like bomb disposal robots.

So instead, I will offer this nonsense...

If you feel Mage Hand is being abused, direct the player to explain their actions in a manner consistent with this reddit post about Mage Hand.

 

[Alkavian]

In context of the rules as written I do not see a problem. The trickster is playing to a design archtype your player finds fun and creative. I would suggest letting that player enjoy their character and wait to see how it will impact the overall game. Remember that accomplishing a task at range is a cool concept, but you are the DM after all. Occasionally toss in a trap or effect that the 30' safety bubble will not protect against. You don't have to go out of your way to thwart player abilities. They have them for a reason. Just give a nudge here and there so they don't get too big for their britches.

 

[Unwise]

The group I DM for has an Arcane Trickster and I have not found too much loss of drama with disarming traps. Normally it is only the rogue in the area anyway, it always felt a little punitive that they were the only guys taking trap damage anyway.

Without doing anything special to stuff up the character's ability, I still find traps interesting.

- Traps still need to be detected, so the PCs still fear them.
- Some traps are noisy, or may contain alarms. The main issue is not the 2d6 damage the thief missed out on, it is the fact it is calling the guards.
- Not all traps are damaging, some just drop a portcullis, release a beast, flood a room or lock some doors.
- Whatever is in the chest may well be destroyed by the trap, often that is the intent.
- Sometimes the Arcane Trickster has to make a perception roll to determine if their disarming worked. They might be too far away to hear the click.
- They still need to get up close to the trap to see what they are dealing with, it is just as the 'cutting the blue wire' stage that they back out.

 

[ForceUser]

It's not game-breaking to pick locks or disarm traps at range. Let the player characters be cool.

That said, you could rule situationally that he has disadvantage. He's been blinded. The room is full of smoke. Carnivorous cockroaches are eating him alive while he's trying to escape a locked room. That sort of thing. By default, however, he should be able to do his cool class thing.

 

[Clancey]

Take away the MH Legerdemain and give the Arcane Trickster access to all Wizard spells instead - with perhaps using the multiclass table on page 165 of PHB instead of the AT table. (says the Arcane Trickster..hehehe)