D&D 5E Mage: Wizards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, Artificers, Psions, oh my.

Question:
How would you mechanically differentiate the the warlock and sorcerer from the wizard without making them seem like brand new classes unrelated to prior versions?

Of course, this would be excluding alternate spellcasting systems. As alternate spellcasting will be its own thing, so all spellcasting classes can equally opt into spell points or 4e powers.

For the sorcerer is it easy. A few bonus spell slots. All of a sorcerer's spells are prepared. Cap on known spells.

For the warlock, it's near impossible as the warlock never had 1-9 spellcasting. The closest thing is creating 20-30 warlock only, scaling cantrips. And make sure no other subclass ever ever ever ever ever ever ever get them. Then make their spells ritual only or something.
 

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The core concept that the mage is the full arcane spell caster, and you get to choose the source of your magic works for me. Plus it means other classes could possibly get alternative casting methods to match.

But this only works so far. Wizardry and Sorcery? I cool with that. Wichcraft? Sure, I could see it work if it uses the same spell list. I'm sure there are plenty of other spellcasting systems that could be dropped in.

It always bothered me, and I mean really bothered me, that the warlock used a different spell list in 3.5, because his magic was basically arcane magic granted by other beings.

The psion, on the other hand, is not an arcane caster. Psionics are different. I want them to be even more different then they have been.

...must spread xp around etc...
 

It is because so many other classes get that stuff. It's recycled and thus not a huge part of the class' identity. It's saying "sorcerer deserve to be a class because they can do things other classes do as well."
Well this isn't about merits, what I'm saying is that sorcerer needs to be a class because in order to properly support the story -an otherwise normal person who can use magic naturally- it needs to be decent at mundane stuff, to be able to be good on stuff a wizard isn't naturally good at, instead of being shoehorned into having class features that actively hinder it's flavor while receiving nothing that actively helps them to be balanced. Can a sorcerer be scholarly? yes he can. Must all sorcerers be scholarly? Heck no.

Which was neat in 3e for a few levels but less impressive with at-will cantrips. It's really only useful when fighting a cold creeature that will ignore ray of frost.


That is a wizard mentality, wanting to solve every single problem with a spell, a sorcerer is naturally a spellcaster, but is also otherwise mundane, of course he can try to act like a wizard but he doesn't has to. A 3e sorcerer had many different paths to choose from:

-Try to be a wizard, learn as much arcane knowledge as possible, pick the most versatile spells, even pretend to carry a spellbook with you.
-Be a blaster, learn only as much as you will need, then fill in the rest of what you need to survive with mundane skills and equipment
-Be a flavorful specialist, go for a theme and stick to it dedicating not a single spell to combat, then carry your weight through combat using the variety of weapons you have at your disposal, there is an advantage to having a weapon with reach or two, and make a moderate investment on skills to ensure your survival
-Be a self buffing gish, by late levels you'll be able to pull a lot of amazing combat displays (and no, that doesn't necessarily involve polimorph cheese)

And that is the magic of the sorcerer he doesn't need to be defined by his magic, but easily could, can be as academic and scholarly as you fancy, but you don't need to, in fact you are allowed not to.
Except they're not since most feats give them away as a perk. If you're going to be using feats and trying to use a weapon, might as well grab the related feat which gives you proficiency as well.
In this case it isn't as hard as focusing on a single weapon, but having a good side arm or being able to add a difference in a pinch. And initial weapon proficiencies are important, you cannot wait four levels to be able to wield it properly, also there is no warranty you'll find useful all of the abilities that come with the proficiency on a feat -and this isn't about character optimization- sometimes you just want to be good with a weapon, not being a master of the weapon


Seen quite a few sorcerers in play, but never saw one as a gish, so that might be all you.
A sorcerer gish is a neat idea for a character but not for the entire class. Melee sorcerers are not so common that they need to become the default.

Sorcerers are natural gishes, just for example
in 3.x
-You have proficiency with the spear family.
-The sorcerer main variant on UA? A battle sorcerer
-The sorcerer variant on complete Mage? A battle sorcerer
-The prestige class in core they qualified more easilly for? A partially gishy class
-The suggested feat on the 3.5 phb? combat casting (it got removed from the wizard)
-The existence of spells like Master's touch, enlarge person, blade of flame, True strike, insightful feint, arrow mind. Of course a wizard could have those too, but in the middle of combat being able to flexibly pick them on the run and apply metamagic as needed is way better, and if they are a permanent part of your character you are also more likely to have the proper scores to survive. A wizard would more easily chicken out and pick a different set the following day.

in 4e:
-Dragon and cosmic sorcerers had a good raw mba with weapons, storm and wild were naturally good with ranged weapons.
-Even in the limited support they received they feature a good amount of close attacks, a feat that transformed their spells into melee attacks, an MBA at will, weapon powers, a feat specially meant for sorcerers in armor, and did I mention their implements are also weapons?
-They aren't as squishy as wizards
-also this title http://community.wizards.com/go/thr...How_to_be_a_Gishy_Squishy_A_Sorcerer_Handbook

So not just me


Warlocks were only minorly melee characters, because they all had an awesome ranged attack.

This isn't making evocative sorcerers and warlocks that capture the feel of those classes; this is taking something they were slightly less bad at than the wizard and doubling down to make that their entire focus.

A gish class is a good idea, and one of the additional classes I'm in favour of. But I was also against forcing the sorcerer into that role last summer. There is room in the game for a duskbade/ sword mage/ spellsword /eldrichtch knight. Cramming another class into that role does a disservice to both.

I bet you never heard of Eldritch strike or the Eldritch charger.

Also I'm not saying the sorcerer has to be shoehorned into the gish role, but that the sorcerer should have what it takes to be built into either path, not just the robbed guy with a hat.
 

Also I'm not saying the sorcerer has to be shoehorned into the gish role, but that the sorcerer should have what it takes to be built into either path, not just the robbed guy with a hat.
I found this comment stood out, because it implies that's al, the mage is. A good mage should be versatile and be equally good in multiple roles, and not just some robed guy in a hat.
 

Well this isn't about merits, what I'm saying is that sorcerer needs to be a class because in order to properly support the story -an otherwise normal person who can use magic naturally- it needs to be decent at mundane stuff, to be able to be good on stuff a wizard isn't naturally good at, instead of being shoehorned into having class features that actively hinder it's flavor while receiving nothing that actively helps them to be balanced. Can a sorcerer be scholarly? yes he can. Must all sorcerers be scholarly? Heck no.

That is a wizard mentality, wanting to solve every single problem with a spell, a sorcerer is naturally a spellcaster, but is also otherwise mundane, of course he can try to act like a wizard but he doesn't has to. A 3e sorcerer had many different paths to choose from:
-Try to be a wizard, learn as much arcane knowledge as possible, pick the most versatile spells, even pretend to carry a spellbook with you.
-Be a blaster, learn only as much as you will need, then fill in the rest of what you need to survive with mundane skills and equipment
-Be a flavorful specialist, go for a theme and stick to it dedicating not a single spell to combat, then carry your weight through combat using the variety of weapons you have at your disposal, there is an advantage to having a weapon with reach or two, and make a moderate investment on skills to ensure your survival
-Be a self buffing gish, by late levels you'll be able to pull a lot of amazing combat displays (and no, that doesn't necessarily involve polimorph cheese)

And that is the magic of the sorcerer he doesn't need to be defined by his magic, but easily could, can be as academic and scholarly as you fancy, but you don't need to, in fact you are allowed not to.
Can't most of that apply equally to the wizard?

In this case it isn't as hard as focusing on a single weapon, but having a good side arm or being able to add a difference in a pinch. And initial weapon proficiencies are important, you cannot wait four levels to be able to wield it properly, also there is no warranty you'll find useful all of the abilities that come with the proficiency on a feat -and this isn't about character optimization- sometimes you just want to be good with a weapon, not being a master of the weapon
Well, the war domain priest has different weapon and armour proficiencies than the base cleric. No reason wizard subclasses couldn't be the same.

I bet you never heard of Eldritch strike or the Eldritch charger.
Yes, but they were only two powers and not particularly representative if all a warlock was. Warlocks can be melee but it's not the default or assumption.
 

To me, part of being a sorcerer is not going through the science of normal magic. A warlock avoids normal magic altogether.

Like normal magic is advanced magic. Magic A. You can get normal magic only certian ways. Either the highest of beings give it to you, dieties for clerics and paladins and nature for druids and rangers. The only other way is to get Magic A is to study hard or have it in your blood.

But there is a Magic B. You can get this from lesser powers: archdevils. fey royalty, demon princes, demigods, and other beings just under divinity. These beings are not strong enough to grant MAgic A, so they a forced to infect people with the weaker Magic B.

Psionics is Magic C. An internal mental magic. Artificers' magic is a corruption of Magic A.

As for Truenamer, that is Magic 1, the original magic. The science behind all magic.
 

I found this comment stood out, because it implies that's al, the mage is. A good mage should be versatile and be equally good in multiple roles, and not just some robed guy in a hat.
Yet that is what it currently is, the robed guy in a hat. No matter how much you dress it, you won't get to change that core.

Can't most of that apply equally to the wizard?
No, because not matter how you see it, the wizard is the scholarly-academic spellcaster, just like the Mage and the MU before it. And he IS defined by the use of magic, he never learned any better that is the justification for the wizard not having a true attack bonus and knowing how to wield so little weapons. But in the case of the sorcerer that doesn't apply, he didn't had to learn or study, he should be capable of wielding more weapons, be more skilled than the wizard and know how to fight, and that is justifiable because overall his magic has been weaker, only design prejudices prevent them to be fully fleshed this way, and that in turn will mean that as long as he is constrained into the wizard mold we'll never get a sorcerer who isn't a second stringer to them. And that is what is happening, the sorcerer is being forced into this mold of "scholarly caster" even when the main point of the sorcerer is he isn't one by default.

Well, the war domain priest has different weapon and armour proficiencies than the base cleric. No reason wizard subclasses couldn't be the same.
But the war domain cleric isn't granting a skill dice, or an improved combat capability, things that a sorcerer should have as opposed to a wizard

Yes, but they were only two powers and not particularly representative if all a warlock was. Warlocks can be melee but it's not the default or assumption.
Even when not melee by default, the warlock isn't a long range attacker by default either.
 

Depends on the type of warlock you choose to play. Hexblade was a warlock melee focused subclass with a fair amoung of pacts to it. Even before that they had Avernus Knight pp. Still there will likely be able to fight melee as a sorceror or warlock if you wish.
 

Yet that is what it currently is, the robed guy in a hat. No matter how much you dress it, you won't get to change that core.
But we can change it for the warlock and sorcerer?
Shouldn't we be focusing equally on making it possible to play non-standard wizards?

No, because not matter how you see it, the wizard is the scholarly-academic spellcaster, just like the Mage and the MU before it. And he IS defined by the use of magic, he never learned any better that is the justification for the wizard not having a true attack bonus and knowing how to wield so little weapons. But in the case of the sorcerer that doesn't apply, he didn't had to learn or study, he should be capable of wielding more weapons, be more skilled than the wizard and know how to fight, and that is justifiable because overall his magic has been weaker, only design prejudices prevent them to be fully fleshed this way,
That's one interpretation. Really, it's a justification of the weapon proficiencies.
The other is that the wizard had to work to learn their magic while the sorcerer is born with it. The sorcerer doesn't need to learn how to fight as they have the inborn power to blast their foes with magic.

Reread the opening paragraph to the mage. Other than the last sentence it's pretty generic.

and that in turn will mean that as long as he is constrained into the wizard mold we'll never get a sorcerer who isn't a second stringer to them. And that is what is happening, the sorcerer is being forced into this mold of "scholarly caster" even when the main point of the sorcerer is he isn't one by default.
Please keep in mind that almost all of the "scholarly wizard" lore and flavour is in the wizardry class feature and not in the mage class.

But the war domain cleric isn't granting a skill dice, or an improved combat capability, things that a sorcerer should have as opposed to a wizard
But sorcerers have traditionally had fewer skills than a wizard. They're not really a skill-based class.
And improved combat ability really seems geared towards the gish sorcerer. And while the melee sorcerer works to differentiate the 5e sorcerer from the wizard, it doesn't work well for updating everyone's sorcerers from earlier editions. Which is one of the catches. The sorcerer needs to be recognisable for updating.

Even when not melee by default, the warlock isn't a long range attacker by default either.
They start with a ranged power that hits enemies 60 ft. away as their primary class feature. Sounds like a ranged attacker by default to me.
 

But we can change it for the warlock and sorcerer?
Shouldn't we be focusing equally on making it possible to play non-standard wizards?
That is the big problem, I'm not against non-standard wizards, but I don't want them at the cost of butchering standard sorcerers and warlocks

That's one interpretation. Really, it's a justification of the weapon proficiencies.
The other is that the wizard had to work to learn their magic while the sorcerer is born with it. The sorcerer doesn't need to learn how to fight as they have the inborn power to blast their foes with magic.

No, not buying it. If he is born with the power, then he has time to learn other stuff. Proficiencies are just the tip of the iceberg here. And notice this is an element that is repeated on PF and 4e. A sorcerer is always proficient with more weapons than the wizard.

Reread the opening paragraph to the mage. Other than the last sentence it's pretty generic.
First paragraph specifically mentions spells, that is a strike from the psion and warlock's pov. Second paragraph is very explicit "students" (sorcerers aren't students) "You have chosen" (sorcerers are born not made, they don't get to choose) and then a rambling on how you have to be so smart and dedicated. Not my definition of generic by any meassure.

Please keep in mind that almost all of the "scholarly wizard" lore and flavour is in the wizardry class feature and not in the mage class.

ok, let's start by the table:

Spellcasting bonus (where is the attack bonus?)
Spells per day (as a sorcerer player I don't care, as a warlock this makes no sense)
Esoteric Knowledge (scholarly, you cannot interpret it otherwise)
Wizardry (this is suppossed to be the removable part)
Arcane Tradition (tradiiton doesn't necessarily imply a school, and I know this is going to be ocupied by a bloodline, but still a poor choice of word)
Ability Score Improvement (yupi generic! like any other class. The number is ok for a SAD caster, not good for the MAD ones)
Scribe scrolls (scholarly, again )
Brew Potion (could go with warlocks, but we know already what this is about)
Spell Mastery (centered on both preparation -no sorcerer does that- and slots -warlock has no business here-.)

Also the flavor of the text reminds you over and over this is about studying and learning.

But sorcerers have traditionally had fewer skills than a wizard. They're not really a skill-based class.
And improved combat ability really seems geared towards the gish sorcerer. And while the melee sorcerer works to differentiate the 5e sorcerer from the wizard, it doesn't work well for updating everyone's sorcerers from earlier editions. Which is one of the catches. The sorcerer needs to be recognisable for updating.

Ok, the if sorcerer dind't have to learn his power, but also couldn't learn any usable combat ability neither any useful skill, what the heck is he supposed to learn with all of that free time?

I'm surprised you are so opposed to give the sorcerer small bumps of power that reinforce the archetype without contradicting existing characters -in fact the Cha skill dice reproduces the Intimidate, diplomacy and bluff training from PF and 4e, the proficiencies are the same they have always had, and in 4e and PF they have many melee or melee friendly abilities- and that aren't even remotely broken "because they wouldn't be recognizable", yet are very supportive of changes that crush their flavor and will result on them being very weak while simultaneously making conversion hard or impossible. And all of it based on prejudices (Arcane caster, so it is just a variant of wizard, it makes no sense he learns to fight or anything but arcane lore, we cannot give them actual fighting prowess because that will force them into the frontline and we cannot allow that, they have done it in the past you say? no that is impossible no wizard is melee friendly)-forgive me if I go too hyperbole here, nothing personal-

They start with a ranged power that hits enemies 60 ft. away as their primary class feature. Sounds like a ranged attacker by default to me.
See please what [MENTION=6670153]gyor[/MENTION] up there has to say about it
 

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