Mages vs Clerics

[Carfax]

I'm sure there is a topic like this somewhere, but I could not find the search feature.

Anyway, I'm just curious.

Alot of people complain about the Cleric and Druid being overpowered.....but how do they stack up against a Mage, in terms of power?

What chance does a 20th level Cleric have against a 20th level Mage in a duel, assuming both are appropriately equipped for their level with the best gear and spells?

 

[charlesatan]

At the end of the day, the problem isn't a battle of spells: it's the cherry on top that hurts.

For example, the Druid essentially has Polymorph that lasts 1 hour/level so he can cast spells and be in animal/elemental form while he's at it, providing him with good physical offense and defense.

A core Cleric only has a slight advantage, mainly from the fact that he has the most efficient healing spells and better hit points. A non-core Cleric, however, has access to Divine Metamagic, which gives him an edge in terms of spellcasting.

At the end of the day, if I were to build a 20th-level Cleric who'd face a 20th-level Wizard (or Sorcerer), there's probably combos that'll result in a one-round kill. So it's down to the dice (who wins initiative).

That's not how D&D is played however and it is a team game. Still, by 20th-level, the Cleric has his own share of damage dealing spells (i.e. Flamestrike, Firestorm) as well as healing. He can also turn into a warrior-mage type character thanks to the trio of spells Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might (and Persistent them). The 20th-level Wizard still has some nifty tricks (i.e. spells like Greater Invisibility, Maze, etc.) up his sleeve but in terms of survivability and flexibilty, the Cleric fares better. There's also the fact that a Cleric's domain can give him access to some of the juicier spells of a Wizard...

Honestly 20th-level is a bad matchup for the Wizard. I'd say it's prettier at mid-levels, at say 8th-10th level.

 

[Darklone]

A high level wizard does not come to a duel, he destroys the city where the duel takes place from afar.

 

[3d6]

In a duel, the cleric would probably win. Clerics have better Fortitude and Will saves than wizards, so a cleric is more likely to pull off a first-round kill.

 

[Carfax]

Wow, I'm amazed that most of you support the Cleric winning over the Mage..

I guess the rumors of the Cleric/Druid being overpowered are correct, because the Mage has typically been the most powerful class at high levels in D&D if I'm not mistaken.

I'm a D&D n00b if any of you don't know yet

 

[Darklone]

The wizards power comes from preparation... the cleric can prepare as well, but mostly for melee.

In a duel without preparation, a wizard needs to win initiative or he's usually dead.

 

[Carfax]

What about Sorcerors then? They don't have the same need to prepare that Wizards do.

How would a Sorceror fare against a Cleric or Druid of equal level?

I'm really surprised WotC would take the Cleric and Druid's power level so far though..

The Mage is powerful, but that power comes at a cost.

It seems that the Druid and Cleric have equal power to the Mage, but without the vulnerabilities..

 

[3d6]

I think the best chance for the wizard is to open with a spell that gives him some breathing room to cast buffing spells. Clerics generally don't have great Intelligence, so a maze spell, combined with time stop, gives you a few free rounds to get some defenses up. A good spell to start with would be shapechange, used to assume the form of a choker. The extra spell each round could easily be decisive. Forcecage could also be useful; clerics have limited access to teleportation effects (but greater dispel magic gives the cleric a way out). Prismatic sphere gives the wizard some space to work with, but the inability to see what the cleric is up to could easily become a problem. Another option, depending on the rules of the duel, could be mage's disjunction. You'll probably die, but so long as your allies recover your magical items, you'll end the duel in a far better position. You'll be dead, but you hit him where it really hurts -- his gear.

 

[charlesatan]

Again, for me, it comes down to initiative: I have 1st-round killing combos for each:

Wizard: A Quickened, Split Ray, Maximixed (via Greater Rod of Maximization) Enervation (8 negative levels) followed by a Split Ray, Twin Spell, Maximized (Rod) of Enervation (16 negative levels). Of course it assumes 1) my opponent has no immunity to negative levels and 2) 5 of the 6 rays hit.

Cleric: Quickened (via Rod), Twin Spell Harm (300 damage on a failed save, 150 on a successful one) and a Twin Spell Harm (300 damage on a failed save, 150 on a successful one). 1) That's four touch attacks, you might need less depending on the actual hit points of the Wizard/Sorcerer. 2) Also assumes opponent is not immune to Necromatic effects.

Sorcerer will fare pretty much the same like the Wizard except with a slight boost from Dragon Magic and Complete Mage and Races of the Dragon.

 

[charlesatan]

I think the best chance for the wizard is to open with a spell that gives him some breathing room to cast buffing spells. Clerics generally don't have great Intelligence, so a maze spell, combined with time stop, gives you a few free rounds to get some defenses up. Forcecage could also be useful; clerics have limited access to teleportation effects (but greater dispel magic gives the cleric a way out). Prismatic sphere gives the wizard some space to work with, but the inability to see what the cleric is up to could easily become a problem. Another option, depending on the rules of the duel, could be mage's disjunction. You'll probably die, but so long as your allies recover your magical items, you'll end the duel in a far better position. You'll be dead, but you hit him where it really hurts -- his gear.

I'd go for Disjunction not because it'll rupture his gear but because it's an automatic dispel magic on his buffs. A Cleric doesn't need to kill a spellcaster with his gear -- his spells are sufficient.

The problem too is that the spellcasters will enter the fight with buffs on. The winner might depend on the pre-fight preparations, how much protection one has (i.e. protection from energy, mind blank, etc.) against the other (think of it as a magical game of rock-paper-scissors). Presumably with Moment of Prescience (Luck Domain), a Cleric can escape from Maze. In 3.0, my Cleric tanked a Prismatic Wall, of his own volition (just to prove himself) twice -- he succeeded thanks to the spell Spell Resistance and simply high saves (those that went through Spell Resistance didn't penetrate his high saving throws).

I'd also like to add that the Wizard/Sorcerer is at a disadvantage when it comes to 1 on 1 fights: he's better at crowd control. The Cleric, on the other hand, is better at handling single, more powerful opponents. He has crowd control too but not as much.