D&D 5E (2014) Magic Item Costs in 5E

[brehobit]

I'd argue, as others have, that it's mostly a matching problem. In big cities, there might be a guy who matches buyers with sellers, taking a hefty part for himself. A "fixer" if you will. There might be a few magic items in the city that the fixer knows could be acquired for the right price. And there might be a few people likely to buy a certain type of magic item. But anyone rushing a purchase or sale is going to get hosed. You might litterally be looking at a given item (say a +1 sword) fetching 2000GP (I mean probably more than full plate) but costing 20,000. And weird items might be really valuable. Something that can reliably make ice might be mighty useful in a desert community. A decanter of endless water might be worth 100x a +1 sword in that same place.

Basically, the GM can probably make up nearly any buy/sell price they want and justify it. But if the party lets it be known that they are selling (or buying) and not in a rush, prices would likely get more reasonable. And factiods like "guildmaster Bob has a magic sword and serious money problems he's keeping on the down low" could end up being a wonderful reward from some well-placed person. In the same way, a bit of "starmetal" or whatever might be enough to make a +2 sword with the right tools/magic/smith. And yet another (side?) quest appears.

If things can be easily made, they should probably have a "list price" based on cost to make (labor & materials) and on demand. But things that can't (easily) be made are a different story.

 

[Thank Dog]

This discussion made me realise something. Medieval society was a mostly cashless one, relying more on bartering and favours than on actual currency. If magical items can't be bought, or at the very least are hard to buy, then the value of gold to a PC is significantly reduced. You're more likely to find a magical item than be able to buy one, and things like healing potions can be bought or made or found also.

So what rewards do you give a PC to motivate them to adventure?

Favours and influence!

"The Lord Fondlebottom would be most appreciative of your efforts, should you succeed in determining the location of The Mysterious Pretty Gem of Shiny Sparkles."

In medieval society, a lord's power and influence was more about who they knew than what they owned. Kings were made and unmade purely through the relationships they kept and maintained. Sure, money was a significant factor, but keeping it was more about politics than the money itself.

 

[Chocolategravy]

It's like the Lamborghini that was beside me on the 405 yesterday. It's a fabulous car. Fast. Beautiful. Expensive. But the average CEO McBillionaire probably doesn't own one even though he could afford 10 simply because it's kind of useless car in the long run.

Yes, it's exactly like the Lamborghini. They sell every single car they make and they have a 2-year waiting list. Apparently $400,000 was too low of a price for them to ask for a car that is less comfortable, burns way more gas, takes 2 years to deliver and won't get you from point A to point B any better than a $20,000 car. Yeah, people will neeeever line up screaming "TAKE MY MONEY" for a magic item... right. *roll eyes* Want a piece of the Titanic's hull? $2M. Want a painting a 3-year old could reproduce? $20M.

 

[Mistwell]

Yes, it's exactly like the Lamborghini. They sell every single car they make and they have a 2-year waiting list. Apparently $400,000 was too low of a price for them to ask for a car that is less comfortable, burns way more gas, takes 2 years to deliver and won't get you from point A to point B any better than a $20,000 car. Yeah, people will neeeever line up screaming "TAKE MY MONEY" for a magic item... right. *roll eyes* Want a piece of the Titanic's hull? $2M. Want a painting a 3-year old could reproduce? $20M.

Hey FFSAA, is there anything you like about 5e?


Mod Note: Cross-board drama here is not welcome on EN World. If you have an issue with a user from elsewhere, leave it there. -Umbran

 

[Fion]

I personally don't plan on giving my players any magical weapons until like 7th level. We have just started our group and are going to run Hoard of the Dragon Queen at about 3rd level. I'm throwing out all the magical loot in that game and change it to temporarily usable stuff. Potions, scrolls, and Masterwork gear.

I wrote up my own version of Masterwork gear into 5e. Weapons & armor can be made from exotic materials or found as loot, given as rewards for quests, or purchased in larger cities that give a minor bonus in combat (+1 damage) on melee weapons, ranged weapons and implements/holy symbols, (Adamantine, Darkwood & Ebonite respectively). There's also Cold Iron (which affects 'all' fiends as if they were magical), mithril, which increases initiative by 1, and silvered for fighting ghosts, lycanthropes, etc. On the armor side I have dragon hide, star leather, drow mesh (names borrowed from 4e) mithril shirts, adamantine plate, etc that give non-combat bonuses like +1 save vs. exhaustion, resistance to one 'natural' element, 5' speed increase, no disadvantage on stealth (medium armor) or higher encumbrance capacity.

When I do start to throw +1 items in there, they will be items of awe, not simply 'yay I can hit 3% more often!' An otherwise simple Longsword +1 might have a spell attached that can be used once a day, or have a Fire 'trapping' (to borrow from Savage Worlds). Perhaps it can be set a-lite with a phrase, crits cause levels of fatigue, flammable materials can be lit aflame.

I can see why in core, magical items do not have a value and cannot be traded. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense but they want magical items to feel special, to awe players when they get them. Of course adversely the first adventures throw dozens of them at the party by level 3.. but I get the idea.

 

[Remathilis]

So if even the wealthiest of nobles can't afford to purchase a magic item, so one of my PC's decides to sell a +1 flail to a noble on the cheap for say a fleet of sailing ships and a title. Then some thieves guild realizes that these groups of wandering adventurers are walking around with multiple priceless items they could also trade or barter to rich merchants who want to impress the nobility.

I don't think that is as much a matter of "can't" but "won't". I can't imagine many nobles, merchants, or temples have use for many magic items PCs find.

But don't you think the DMG should give you suggested values of these items so you have some frame of refrence for your campaign, I mean if there is a gold piece value for warships, towers, castles, slaves, and all kinds of other things shouldn't the game system give you an idea of what a +1 sword is worth to a young noble, or a holy avenger is worth to a church, a crystal ball to the spymaster?

That's the thing; its value is based on its use.

What's the value of a holy avenger? Well, I imagine a temple of a LG deity might value it alot. A temple of a CE god might likewise give a good price for it to keep it out of good's hands. But I doubt a druidic order, a wizard's college, or a monk's monastery have much use for it, thus would value it far lower than the temple's would. Yet in 3.5, they would all pay 60,630 gp RAW.

Name something in the real world that doesn't have a price, now think for a minute and could you pay a team of thieves or mercenaries to acquire it for you, if so then there is the price.

Well, you're assuming the cost to find a group high enough level to steal it AND loyal enough to actually BRING it to you. There are a lot of intangibles that gp cost doesn't cover.

 

[Thank Dog]

Hey FFSAA, is there anything you like about 5e?

I'm fairly certain that the answer to that question is something along the lines of, "Yes, coming to this forum and complaining about it."

 

[chando]

I don't think that is as much a matter of "can't" but "won't". I can't imagine many nobles, merchants, or temples have use for many magic items PCs find.



That's the thing; its value is based on its use.

What's the value of a holy avenger? Well, I imagine a temple of a LG deity might value it alot. A temple of a CE god might likewise give a good price for it to keep it out of good's hands. But I doubt a druidic order, a wizard's college, or a monk's monastery have much use for it, thus would value it far lower than the temple's would. Yet in 3.5, they would all pay 60,630 gp RAW.

Just thought i should add something to this: from a economic point of view, Value of something its based (roughly) both on its use and on the work needed to produce the thing. Now, DMG might come with a number of options from 3.5 'Any 5th level caster with this feat can make this with X and Y spells'' to ''only very high level casters can make even the most basic permanent magic item" to ''Well, there the spell called Flame Weapon and if you can cast every day for a month you can make that a +1 Flame Weapon, but with more time and higher level slots you can make a +2/3 Flame Weapon. There is one for every item in the world and you need to research/acquire the specific one you want''. Every one of this variants will influence on the availability of magic items market. And is greatly influenced by the game world as well. If you need a Wiz 15 just to make a +1 sword, and you are in a world where most NPC are level 3-6 tops, chances are that magic sword is bound to be worth a bajillion gp, even if no one would buy it for that much, thats its value. If you are in Forgotten where you have Merchant Red Wizards conclaves everywhere things are going to be a little different.

Now, in 3.5 they took the work needed to make the item (caster level requirements, specific spells, feats, XP cost) and made items follow these formulas to determine its value. Just because the holy avenger is worth this much, doesn`t mean the the monastery or the wizard guild will buy it. Its like sand in the desert, you will just not buy it if you have no use for it. The LG church might buy it for its listed price, maybe with some fluctuation or offering services in return, and the LE church might buy for any value, depending of whether they will just destroy the thing, corrupt it or use to bring the fall of a great Paladin by making he work for them in exchange for the relic. You might bring Offer and Demand and a lot more into play, but the point is, the sword has its value, and its 60,630 gp in 3.5. If somebody is gonna pay that value or not for the sword it a completely different story.

Now, I would like some guidelines on on the value of those things in the DMG as not everybody should learn something about Economics just to run a consistent D&D world (but it helps ). But I`m not against multiple options (modules) on the DMG with options for players crafting magic items or/and having a Magicmart in the campaign, and options for the secrets of magic item creation to be highly secured or even long forgotten and we have a finite number of magic items in the world from decades past where the weave worked in a different way or something. Eberron has Artifices for f***s sake. I love them, but they would hardly make sense in a society that doesn't produces and sells magic items.

So yeah, i guess we will have to wait and see what do they do with magic items in the DMG (and than we will probably come here and complain anyway ), but if they give at least 3 options to choose from when handling magic items it would be good enough for me. Of course, the more the merrier.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Another solution is magic items that bond with one and only one person; magic items with limited uses, such as swords which can only be unsheathed ten or twenty times before they stop working; magic items that need to be activated - which could lead to a sidequest; items which have magic powers for some people and curses for others, etc.

 

[Lanefan]

Sheer logic dictates there will end up being a market for, and trade in, arcane spells and magic items; here's why:

For arcane spells: well, spells have to come from somewhere. Either someone researches and invents a spell independently, or a wizards' guild does it. And once that new spell exists, it can be - and will be - sold for cash or bartered for other spells; except in the unusual circumstance where the spell's inventor in effect makes it "public domain" from day one and just gives it away.

For magic items: there seems to be fairly common agreement so far that the PCs can sell an item they don't need, even if only for a trivial amount of cash or barter. And if the PCs can sell it that by default maens someone can buy it. Now, let's reverse that. The PCs are not the only adventurers the world has ever seen; there's other adventurers out there, either now or in the past, and they might well have magic items they don't need. They can offer these items for sale. And the PCs, by logical extension, can buy them if they hear about them and agree to the price. Over the years, reasonably standard prices will develop for the more commonly-seen magic items e.g. basic-enchantment weapons, armour, spell scrolls and spellbooks, etc. Never mind that there might be artificers out there whose living is made by making and selling magic items...in fact if there's an artificers' guild setting the rates then right there you're going to have a set of (basic) item prices.

That said, to answer [MENTION=40158]Werebat[/MENTION] regarding the munchkin optimizers: neither magic item lists nor prices should be in the hands of players. Period. And, by the way, problem solved.

A further reason for having standard item pricing: without it there is no way to properly and equitably divide the party treasury after each adventure; particularly if there is differing knowledge levels among the players as to what items are worth, and what their uses are. If each PC's share of the non-magic treasure is worth 2000 g.p. (so we all get that) but there's 5 magic items to go around between 5 characters and I claim the gleaming magic longsword that slays dragons as my item and you only get a potion, you're quite rightly going to feel ripped off. But without standard values (or values somehow set by a non-involved third party) there's no way to compensate, at least not without some fearsome arguing at the table.

Lan-"believe me, having seen too many of both I can tell you treasury arguments are always way worse than alignment arguments"-efan