D&D 5E Magic Item Math of 5e

[Ancalagon]

This definitely is an extremely useful thread (well, besides the strange squabble about the laugh button...) , so yes, thank you OP

 

[MwaO]

This definitely is an extremely useful thread (well, besides the strange squabble about the laugh button...) , so yes, thank you OP

Thanks, glad people are finding it useful. It was very helpful for really understanding how 5e worked(and in some cases was attempting to work)

 

[MwaO]

Btw, this got called out by Alphastream/Teos on Dragon Talk #364 at approximately the 10 minute mark(as well as some similar math), so WotC's aware of it and perhaps it is influencing some things.

 

[S'mon]

I've found that giving out even quite powerful items (eg +3 to AC) makes no noticeable impact on play. I certainly don't need to rebalance my encounters to take account of the items I've given out. I can imagine that handing out +3 plate & +3 shield would make a noticeable difference compared to no magic items, but +1 and the occasional +2 item doesn't, and magic weapon pluses certainly don't.

7 years later, I'd pretty much stand by this. There is something of a break point with AC, when you start getting up around 24-26 then most weak creatures are only hitting on a 20. But you don't even need magic items to get up there; an Eldritch Knight with plate shield & casting shield is already at AC 25. My son likes to combine Shield with Blur and as DM it does get a bit dispiriting when I only hit on a double 20.

I've now run campaigns where the PCs had basically nothing at 15th level (Princes of the Apocalypse - at 12th level a Fighter PC was still in his starting chainmail), campaigns with old school magic & monster distribution (Stonehell, Barrowmaze - Sir Glendor's catchphrase "I have an AC of 26 you know" has become legendary!), and campaigns in between (Odyssey of the Dragonlords) - it all works fine. 5e is extremely robust. They did a great job learning the lessons from 3e & 4e. WoTC's own high-CR monsters do tend to be weak, especially in higher-magic item campaigns, and can come across as XP Pinatas. Kobold Press high CR monsters work fine though, and it's not hard to tweak the WoTC monster stats to make them more threatening; just giving them an extra attack or two often does the trick.

 

[S'mon]

Here's one PC group in one of my campaigns (FR) after about 2.5 years of play, with their magic items. Most of the PCs have AC 17-20, with the leader Lord Norrin a stand-out at AC 24. This group recently struggled in a battle with a few dozen Dust Goblins (AC 14 HP 5 ATT light crossbow ATT +5 dam 1d8+3 or shortsword ATT +5 dam 1d6+3 BA: Disengage/Hide, CR 1/4) in a ruined village, and might have lost had not Light Cleric 8 PC Aya turned up during the fight with her liberal deployment of Fireballs.

1. Lord Norrin (Geoff), Knight of Arcata, the Baron D'Ashe, Son of Thorin, Father of Teela D'Ashe Norrinsdottir. Human male Fighter-9 (Champion) PB+4 AC 24 (plate +1 & shield +2, cloak) HP 85 (4+9x9/level) MI: +2 longsword, +1 plate armour, +2 shield, cloak of protection (a). Henchman: Rondus
Followers: 100 heavy infantry, 20 light cavalry, Fighter-4 Lieutenant, Veteran Captain Farrell.
2. Queale (Keelia) Half-Elf female Horizon Walker Ranger-8 AC 17 (mithril half plate) HP 76 (13+9/level) P-PER 16 P-INV 13 P-INS 16 MI: rabbit fur slippers of elvenkind, +1 arrows, ethereal diadem (in pack, a), +1 longbow, Oathbow (a), +1 Durgeddin Rapier.
3. Meryem Bloodletter of Reghed (Roxy) Human female Berserker Barbarian-8 AC 20 (15 half plate +2 DEX +3 shield +1) HP 85 (15+10/level) P-PER 10 P-INV 10 P-INS 10. MI: +1 Duergar greatsword, +3 battleaxe of Durgeddin, +1 shield. Henchman: Hugo
4. Goltho 'Bearchaser' (Tim), Goliath male Fighter-6 (Arcane Archer) AC 18 (Glamered Half Plate +1) HP 58 (13+9/lvl) P-PER 14 P-INV 11 P-INS 11 MI: Yew Greatbow +1, Longsword +1, Goggles of Night, Glamered Half Plate +1
5. Kevan Blackguard (Jack) Half-Elf male Bard-6 (Lore) AC 17 (+2 studded) HP 45 (10+7/lvl) P-PER 14 P-INS 12 MI: JAODAR’S TOME OF ENCHANTMENT (a) (+1 to Enchantment Save DC), Studded Leather +2, Medallion of Thoughts, +1 Shortsword, Immovable Rod, Wand of Arcane Lock Henchman: Tod

 

[MwaO]

Here's one PC group in one of my campaigns (FR) after about 2.5 years of play, with their magic items. Most of the PCs have AC 17-20, with the leader Lord Norrin a stand-out at AC 24. This group recently struggled in a battle with a few dozen Dust Goblins (AC 14 HP 5 ATT light crossbow ATT +5 dam 1d8+3 or shortsword ATT +5 dam 1d6+3 BA: Disengage/Hide, CR 1/4) in a ruined village, and might have lost had not Light Cleric 8 PC Aya turned up during the fight with her liberal deployment of Fireballs.

1. Lord Norrin (Geoff), Knight of Arcata, the Baron D'Ashe, Son of Thorin, Father of Teela D'Ashe Norrinsdottir. Human male Fighter-9 (Champion) PB+4 AC 24 (plate +1 & shield +2, cloak) HP 85 (4+9x9/level) MI: +2 longsword, +1 plate armour, +2 shield, cloak of protection (a). Henchman: Rondus
Followers: 100 heavy infantry, 20 light cavalry, Fighter-4 Lieutenant, Veteran Captain Farrell.
2. Queale (Keelia) Half-Elf female Horizon Walker Ranger-8 AC 17 (mithril half plate) HP 76 (13+9/level) P-PER 16 P-INV 13 P-INS 16 MI: rabbit fur slippers of elvenkind, +1 arrows, ethereal diadem (in pack, a), +1 longbow, Oathbow (a), +1 Durgeddin Rapier.
3. Meryem Bloodletter of Reghed (Roxy) Human female Berserker Barbarian-8 AC 20 (15 half plate +2 DEX +3 shield +1) HP 85 (15+10/level) P-PER 10 P-INV 10 P-INS 10. MI: +1 Duergar greatsword, +3 battleaxe of Durgeddin, +1 shield. Henchman: Hugo
4. Goltho 'Bearchaser' (Tim), Goliath male Fighter-6 (Arcane Archer) AC 18 (Glamered Half Plate +1) HP 58 (13+9/lvl) P-PER 14 P-INV 11 P-INS 11 MI: Yew Greatbow +1, Longsword +1, Goggles of Night, Glamered Half Plate +1
5. Kevan Blackguard (Jack) Half-Elf male Bard-6 (Lore) AC 17 (+2 studded) HP 45 (10+7/lvl) P-PER 14 P-INS 12 MI: JAODAR’S TOME OF ENCHANTMENT (a) (+1 to Enchantment Save DC), Studded Leather +2, Medallion of Thoughts, +1 Shortsword, Immovable Rod, Wand of Arcane Lock Henchman: Tod

If these PCs are fighting 6-8 medium to hard combats in a day and the one at-level primary caster is blowing half her high level spell capability on an easy fight, that's an example of how magic items make a difference.

 

[S'mon]

If these PCs are fighting 6-8 medium to hard combats in a day and the one at-level primary caster is blowing half her high level spell capability on an easy fight, that's an example of how magic items make a difference.

I think all three of the things you said are not true.
(1) The group rarely has 6-8 fights between long rests,
(2) it wasn't an easy fight (although it was a low-XP fight), and
(3) the Cleric using up her level 3-4 spell slots on Fireballs wasn't an example of magic items making a difference.

 

[MwaO]

I think all three of the things you said are not true.
(1) The group rarely has 6-8 fights between long rests,
(2) it wasn't an easy fight (although it was a low-XP fight), and
(3) the Cleric using up her level 3-4 spell slots on Fireballs wasn't an example of magic items making a difference.

That's the point. I'm describing the typical campaign that R&D is talking about in DMG. You're not playing a typical campaign and telling me that you don't see the effect of magic items. Because a caster could use up her high level spells without fear of needing them later. In part because the average PC was somewhere around 10-30% more likely to be missed on an absolute set of numbers. And this on what 5e defines as being an "easy" fight.

Those are big things.

 

[Bacon Bits]

7 years later, I'd pretty much stand by this. There is something of a break point with AC, when you start getting up around 24-26 then most weak creatures are only hitting on a 20. But you don't even need magic items to get up there; an Eldritch Knight with plate shield & casting shield is already at AC 25. My son likes to combine Shield with Blur and as DM it does get a bit dispiriting when I only hit on a double 20.

This largely mirrors what I've found. The difference between AC 20 and AC 22 isn't a whole lot. But the difference between AC 20 and AC 25 is quite a bit.

That said, I really don't like giving out +X items anymore, whether they're armor, shields, or weapons. I'd rather give out +0 items and then have them do something cool or memorable. Designing magic items is one of my favorite parts of DMing.

I've now run campaigns where the PCs had basically nothing at 15th level (Princes of the Apocalypse - at 12th level a Fighter PC was still in his starting chainmail), campaigns with old school magic & monster distribution (Stonehell, Barrowmaze - Sir Glendor's catchphrase "I have an AC of 26 you know" has become legendary!), and campaigns in between (Odyssey of the Dragonlords) - it all works fine. 5e is extremely robust. They did a great job learning the lessons from 3e & 4e. WoTC's own high-CR monsters do tend to be weak, especially in higher-magic item campaigns, and can come across as XP Pinatas. Kobold Press high CR monsters work fine though, and it's not hard to tweak the WoTC monster stats to make them more threatening; just giving them an extra attack or two often does the trick.

And, yeah, with some exceptions, the CR of most of WotC's high level monsters is too high. I've seen 5 PCs at 13th level take down a Balor (CR 19) in two encounters only a few rounds apart. The first one went down in the second round, and the second one went down in 5 or 6. Technically, that's two "Hard" encounters, but looking at the numbers it really does not feel like a level 13 party should be challenging CR 19s. Granted, the second one did knock most of the party unconscious with death throes. It turns out 40d6 damage in less than a minute is a bit too much to handle, but other than that the party had more than enough resources to deal with them. That was some side adventure in Out of the Abyss in 2015. Creatures intended to go solo really need a lot more survivability than you initially think.

 

[MwaO]

That's the point. I'm describing the typical campaign that R&D is talking about in DMG. You're not playing a typical campaign and telling me that you don't see the effect of magic items. Because a caster could use up her high level spells without fear of needing them later. In part because the average PC was somewhere around 10-30% more likely to be missed on an absolute set of numbers. And this on what 5e defines as being an "easy" fight.

Those are big things.

Just to use the Berserker as a specific example, assuming they're raging and doing frenzy for the combat:
They go from 1d8+7(25% kill) to 1d8+10(63% kill)
They go from hitting on a 6(75%) to a 3(90%)
They get hit with Advantage 64% to 51%
They get hit without Advantage 40% to 30%

Now note what this all means — the magic item Berserker can avoid doing Reckless Attack and will kill more Goblins on average per round(usually 2) than the non-magic item Berserker will kill with Reckless Attack(usually 1 and injure one badly). In doing so, they will be hit less than half as often as the non-magic item Berserker.