Magic Item Question

[Ryujin]

Yeah there are fairly easy patches to make more items memorable.

But will we ever see an edition in which all items are?

1e, unless you were Monty Hall.

If you make the items that characters get essentially bonus only, then the ones with special abilities become virtual Artifacts. If you use Inherent Bonuses, then a +1 weapon with flame becomes a real killer.

 

[mneme]

Having a bunch of items whose bonus you note and then forget about until it's time to consider replacing them is actually a key 4e mechanic, and one that was a deliberate choice.

Having a bag of random magical items is cool (and useful when you're in big trouble and need to figure out where the reset button is), but the more activated powers are available, the higher the decision load is. 4e deliberately went for a "medium" decision load, without too many decisions at any given branch point; items with bonuses make players feel like they got cool stuff and bulk out their charactes, but they don't increase the decision load at each branch point the way items with powers do.

 

[MarkB]

Oh for sure those forgettable items are useful and many players (mine included) do get more mileage out of them than they do daily item powers.

But could those items be made flashier and more interesting mechanically?

Sure, but then that's what the Rare items are for, isn't it?

I'm all for cool, flashy items, but at higher levels they tend to accumulate. My 15th-level LFR wizard has a whole array of items that occupy two pages' worth of power cards in the Character Builder, and it's getting to the point where I can't keep track of them, let alone find time to use them all. I've had an Immovable Rod for six levels that I've never even activated.

I kind-of like the idea of a character having a whole array of "fire-and-forget" items that just allow him to be cooler and more effective, plus two or three really interesting ones that allow him to do something extraordinary.

 

[The Human Target]

Having a bunch of items whose bonus you note and then forget about until it's time to consider replacing them is actually a key 4e mechanic, and one that was a deliberate choice.

Having a bag of random magical items is cool (and useful when you're in big trouble and need to figure out where the reset button is), but the more activated powers are available, the higher the decision load is. 4e deliberately went for a "medium" decision load, without too many decisions at any given branch point; items with bonuses make players feel like they got cool stuff and bulk out their charactes, but they don't increase the decision load at each branch point the way items with powers do.

I agree, and prefer a more medium decision load. I think its good for the game.

But should those decisions come in the form of a heap of magic items, many of them forgettable?

 

[The Human Target]

Sure, but then that's what the Rare items are for, isn't it?

I'm all for cool, flashy items, but at higher levels they tend to accumulate. My 15th-level LFR wizard has a whole array of items that occupy two pages' worth of power cards in the Character Builder, and it's getting to the point where I can't keep track of them, let alone find time to use them all. I've had an Immovable Rod for six levels that I've never even activated.

I kind-of like the idea of a character having a whole array of "fire-and-forget" items that just allow him to be cooler and more effective, plus two or three really interesting ones that allow him to do something extraordinary.

I'd rather the "fire and forget" style stuff be removed from items and incorporated into more feats and things for the PC, and having each PC have a few super cool items.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Except there are already a crapton of feats, and such feats would tend to be basically mandatory ones. Everyone already screams bloody murder over Expertise and it is nothing more or less than what you would get if you wanted to make the +X enhancement bonus into a feat. It just doesn't work. Feats should be reserved for customization, not things you need to keep up. Notice also that there already ARE plenty of feats that let you gain useful but not vital bonuses (like Skill Focus). There are also things like Skill Power that let you drop in an additional power. The static items are just ways to stack a bit MORE on top of those if you specifically need it or happen to be feat constrained.

Basic bonus items have always existed. They were the first items that were included in the game back in '74. They still exist for the most part because they are one of the unkillable sacred cows of the game. 4e has a huge advantage in that it is at least POSSIBLE to get rid of them if you want to. It was pretty much impossible in say AD&D where at high levels you wouldn't hit significant enemies as a fighter without a +X sword at all. I suppose you could have tacked in an inherent bonus, but there was no transparency on what bonus was appropriate at what levels (and the minor issue of some monsters being immune to non-magical attacks which you could just hand wave).

 

[The Human Target]

Except there are already a crapton of feats, and such feats would tend to be basically mandatory ones. Everyone already screams bloody murder over Expertise and it is nothing more or less than what you would get if you wanted to make the +X enhancement bonus into a feat. It just doesn't work. Feats should be reserved for customization, not things you need to keep up. Notice also that there already ARE plenty of feats that let you gain useful but not vital bonuses (like Skill Focus). There are also things like Skill Power that let you drop in an additional power. The static items are just ways to stack a bit MORE on top of those if you specifically need it or happen to be feat constrained.

Basic bonus items have always existed. They were the first items that were included in the game back in '74. They still exist for the most part because they are one of the unkillable sacred cows of the game. 4e has a huge advantage in that it is at least POSSIBLE to get rid of them if you want to. It was pretty much impossible in say AD&D where at high levels you wouldn't hit significant enemies as a fighter without a +X sword at all. I suppose you could have tacked in an inherent bonus, but there was no transparency on what bonus was appropriate at what levels (and the minor issue of some monsters being immune to non-magical attacks which you could just hand wave).

I'm for getting rid of all mandatory "decisions", be they items or feats.

 

[Henry]

I'm sorry to disappoint some grognards, but every edition of D&D has had a certain amount of "grab and forget" items; my group used to do it (with +1 swords, +1 armors, rings of protection, etc.), and I've run into several people whose groups had such, as well - we all didn't play like perfect little deep-immersion roleplayers when we were age 10.

Admittedly, AD&D did have a much higher proportion of quirky and awesome items, things that as of 3E and onward didn't fit into some nice little niche and got hammered into a different form, or dropped entirely. The really great stuff was things like the Gauntlets of Ogre Power / Girdle of Giant Strength, the Wands of Fire / Illumination / Shock, Rod of Lordly Might (which started to lose its cool even as early as 3E), and things like Mattocks and Mauls of the Titans - how cool is it to get your own entrenching tool that lets you put a Ditch Witch to shame?

Alas, I don't think you'll find something like a 1E-style Mattock of the Titans in stock D&D, any more. However, I hear they're bringing back the Deck of Many Things in one of the Gencon podcasts, so maybe there's hope...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And i still cross my fingers for ADnD style gauntlets of ogre power as rare items in 4e. (If not, i will just make up my own.) Giving strength 18 with a heroic tier rare item to a player that happens to find them does not seem overpowered....

 

[Jhaelen]

And i still cross my fingers for ADnD style gauntlets of ogre power as rare items in 4e. (If not, i will just make up my own.) Giving strength 18 with a heroic tier rare item to a player that happens to find them does not seem overpowered....

I don't think that's the kind of 'awesome' that rare items are supposed to be.

Rare items sound like the 4e version of Weapons of Legacy.