Magic Item Question

[Kirowan]

I think one or the other is a typo, as this would make no sense. I would say you have to pay for material components and XP components in all cases, not just in the case of armor. (The book also states you must pay these costs when making a potion, scroll, staff, or wand, so why should these be any different?)

You think they made a typo three times - armor, rods, and wonderous items? I agree with your logic though.

Um, this was answered in your last three questions. The part you're reading is talking about the added gp costs for material and XP components for spells ACTUALLY cast by items as opposed to just being prerequisites. If an item actually casts a spell, it increases the base price (but this does not affect creation time and costs at all, just the market price).

So that's a yes then? Spellcasters eat the material component and xp costs for prerequisite spells that aren't actually activated by the item being created.

Thanks,

Nick

 

[Anubis]

You think they made a typo three times - armor, rods, and wonderous items? I agree with your logic though.

Yep. Wouldn't be the first time hahaha.

So that's a yes then? Spellcasters eat the material component and xp costs for prerequisite spells that aren't actually activated by the item being created.

Thanks,

Nick

Actually it's yes AND no. You see, you have to take that superscript in context. It is referring to the two columns that add to the market price of an item based on components.

A creator always eats the cost of components. There are conditions, though. If you make an item that allows you to do something specific and weird that is extraordinary, and Wish is a prerequisite spell (but NOT actually cast by the item), then the creator eats 5000 XP in addition to normal costs, but the creation and market prices remain unchanged.

IF, however, the item actually uses the spell in question, that changes things. Now you pay the cost PER CHARGE. If an item casts wish three times, then you pay 15,000 XP, and in addition, the market price increases by 75,000. This is actually detailed in the rules, so you know it's right. This also means if you made a Staff of Wish, it would take 250,000 EXTRA XP and add 1,250,000 gp to the market price.

Now it gets more ridiculous if something is always active or has no charges. If you created an item that cast wish at will, you treat it as if it has 100 charges, and thus you pay 500,000 XP extra in addition to bumping up the market price by 2,500,000 gp!

Anyway, hope that clears things up . . .

 

[Kirowan]

That clears up everything perfectly Anubis. Thanks for all of your help.

Nick

 

[Hypersmurf]

Regardless of the wording of the parts he say, the book SPECIFICALLY states that activating a scroll is a standard action. This, in fact, supercedes the part he was reading. Thing about it: if you had to go with the casting time, why make activating scrolls a standard action instead of "action varies"?

That's found in the table of Action Types. The line about Spell Completion items taking a standard action is under the description of the Activation Method.

And yes, activating a magic item, spell completion or otherwise, is a standard action (unless the item indicates otherwise).

Now, I'm going to quote from the DMG, not the SRD, this time (3E - I don't know if the 3.5 says the same) since I'm not at work right now.

"However, the casting time of a spell is the same time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it's a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."

The table of Action Types is not the item description. The Activation Method description is not the item description. And under Scrolls - the item description - there is nothing to specifically state otherwise.

"Whether it's a scroll..."

It doesn't come much clearer than that.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

A creator always eats the cost of components. There are conditions, though. If you make an item that allows you to do something specific and weird that is extraordinary, and Wish is a prerequisite spell (but NOT actually cast by the item), then the creator eats 5000 XP in addition to normal costs, but the creation and market prices remain unchanged.

IF, however, the item actually uses the spell in question, that changes things. Now you pay the cost PER CHARGE. If an item casts wish three times, then you pay 15,000 XP, and in addition, the market price increases by 75,000. This is actually detailed in the rules, so you know it's right. This also means if you made a Staff of Wish, it would take 250,000 EXTRA XP and add 1,250,000 gp to the market price.

Now it gets more ridiculous if something is always active or has no charges. If you created an item that cast wish at will, you treat it as if it has 100 charges, and thus you pay 500,000 XP extra in addition to bumping up the market price by 2,500,000 gp!

How is it possible that a costly (gp, xp) prerequisite for creating a magic item doesn't increase its market value?

OTOH, I think there was a passage somewhere in 3e where it said that a spellcaster who is crafting a magic item which has a prerequisite spell is effectively casting one such a spell for every day of work... but that would terribly increase the price for items which require for example Wish

 

[Staffan]

How is it possible that a costly (gp, xp) prerequisite for creating a magic item doesn't increase its market value?

This is yet another one of those cases where people confuse Base price, Cost to create, and Market Value. Let's use a pair of scrolls to show the difference:

Scroll 1: Scroll of Mage Armor, caster level 1.
Base Price: Spell Level*Caster Level*25 = 25 gp
Special costs: none.
Cost to create: Base price/2 in gp (12.5 gp); Base price/25 in XP (1 XP); Base price/1000 in days (1 day)
Market value: Base price + special costs = 25 gp

Scroll 2: Scroll of Identify, caster level 1.
Base price: Spell level*Caster level*25 = 25 gp
Special costs: Material component, 100 gp
Cost to create: Base price/2 in gp (12.5 gp) plus special costs (100 gp) for a total of 112.5 gp; Base price/25 in XP (1 XP); Base price/1000 in days (1 day)
Market value: Base price + special costs = 25 gp + 100 gp = 125 gp.

Another example: Ring of three wishes.
Base price: Spell level * Caster Level * 50 (for being a single-use item) * 3 (for three charges) = 22,950 gp
Special costs: 15,000 XP for the three wishes.
Cost to create: Base price/2 in gp = 11,475 gp; Base price/25 plus special costs in XP = 15,918 XP; Base price/1000 in days = 23 days.
Market Value: Base price plus special costs (15,000 XP á 5 gp/XP) = 22,950 + 5*15,000 = 97,950.

 

[hong]

OTOH, I think there was a passage somewhere in 3e where it said that a spellcaster who is crafting a magic item which has a prerequisite spell is effectively casting one such a spell for every day of work... but that would terribly increase the price for items which require for example Wish

Yep. Have a look at the prices of the various stat-boosting tomes.

 

[Anubis]

That's found in the table of Action Types. The line about Spell Completion items taking a standard action is under the description of the Activation Method.

And yes, activating a magic item, spell completion or otherwise, is a standard action (unless the item indicates otherwise).

Now, I'm going to quote from the DMG, not the SRD, this time (3E - I don't know if the 3.5 says the same) since I'm not at work right now.

This right here, means the rest of what you said does not matter. I quoted the CURRENT rules. You quoted the old rules.

Now if the original posted meant 3.0, fine, that your answer is worth more. When I see a question, though, I automatically assume 3.5 because that is the official version now, and this is the Rules forum.

 

[Anubis]

How is it possible that a costly (gp, xp) prerequisite for creating a magic item doesn't increase its market value?

It DOES increase the market value. The base price and cost to create is what doesn't go up.

OTOH, I think there was a passage somewhere in 3e where it said that a spellcaster who is crafting a magic item which has a prerequisite spell is effectively casting one such a spell for every day of work... but that would terribly increase the price for items which require for example Wish

You see, the old books never said that, but a lot of very . . . Well a lot of people interpreted that way, and it was an incorrect interpretation. That wording is still in there, but there are enough examples and clarifications that it's easy to see that it was not, is not, and never will be that way. If it were, creating ANY items with costly components would be impossible by default.

The confusion comes from the "spell is prepared and unable to be cast as if he had already cast it blah blah blah" line. It basical,ly is talking about spell slot availability and says that you can't use that spell slot, as if you had cast the spell that day. The correct interpretation, however, is a simple one. The reasoning behind that text is simply to let you know that you can't use that spell slot for anything else and that the spell has to have been prepared and you can't cast it, as if it had already been cast. Without that text, the creator could still cast that spell as a normal daily spell even after a day of creating. That text is NOT meant to imply in any way that you have to pay the costs per day of creation.

I never have understood why people thought that. It defies all logic and common sense. With that rules, a Ring of Three Wishes couldn't be made until somewhere around like Level 400 due to the XP costs. In addition, the stat-boosting tomes could never be made either.

Instead, if the spell is ONLY a prerequisite and not in the item, you pay the material and XP costs once. For other items, you have to pay the price PER CHARGE. For permanent items that are always active or unlimited uses, you pay as if there were 100 charges. Simple.

This is yet another one of those cases where people confuse Base price, Cost to create, and Market Value. Let's use a pair of scrolls to show the difference:

Scroll 1: Scroll of Mage Armor, caster level 1.
Base Price: Spell Level*Caster Level*25 = 25 gp
Special costs: none.
Cost to create: Base price/2 in gp (12.5 gp); Base price/25 in XP (1 XP); Base price/1000 in days (1 day)
Market value: Base price + special costs = 25 gp

Scroll 2: Scroll of Identify, caster level 1.
Base price: Spell level*Caster level*25 = 25 gp
Special costs: Material component, 100 gp
Cost to create: Base price/2 in gp (12.5 gp) plus special costs (100 gp) for a total of 112.5 gp; Base price/25 in XP (1 XP); Base price/1000 in days (1 day)
Market value: Base price + special costs = 25 gp + 100 gp = 125 gp.

Another example: Ring of three wishes.
Base price: Spell level * Caster Level * 50 (for being a single-use item) * 3 (for three charges) = 22,950 gp
Special costs: 15,000 XP for the three wishes.
Cost to create: Base price/2 in gp = 11,475 gp; Base price/25 plus special costs in XP = 15,918 XP; Base price/1000 in days = 23 days.
Market Value: Base price plus special costs (15,000 XP á 5 gp/XP) = 22,950 + 5*15,000 = 97,950.

Exactly.

 

[Anubis]

Yep. Have a look at the prices of the various stat-boosting tomes.

Perhaps you should clarify your statement. It sounds as if you're confirming Li Shenron's question, which even your statement shows as wrong. The stat-boosting items cost 5000 per wish, not 5000 per day of creation.

Did I misread your post?