Magic item rarity revision forthcoming?

[AbdulAlhazred]

The fighter can certainly swing an entire encounter with the drop of a single power. A well-timed Come And Get It or Warrior's Urging is devastating. Note that this devastating quality is not primarily due to whether the character executing said power is a wizard or fighter, but the design of the power itself. Rather, the fact that the fighter is using a weapon instead of an implement simply means that in addition to all the other things that make the powers nasty, they will also do more damage than if they were in an implement-user's repetoire.

Come and Get It MIGHT swing an encounter, of course. Anything MIGHT, and it is a perfectly fine power. OTOH Flaming Sphere WILL win an encounter except under the most adverse possible circumstances. Consecrated Ground WILL win an encounter almost every time. There IS a difference.

It is absolutely possible to do an apples-to-apples comparison with powers. I'm shooting a laser, you're firing an arrow. I'm doing 3d6 at range 10 and you're doing 3d12 at range 40. There's a discrepancy there, and getting all holistic about it is, IMHO, kdding yourself. Sure, you have to factor in class features that have a global impact on the class's powers (like sneak attack or hunter's quarry), but that's about it.

No, I'm not kidding myself at all because said laser cleric is ALSO healing someone at the same time. I'm not sure exactly which powers you're referring to 3d6 vs 3d12 but I'm going to postulate that your 3d6 at range 10 is also debuffing the enemy in some fashion. It just isn't ALL about damage output. If it was a party of 5 rangers would be invincible and that just doesn't pan out in practice. Now, I'm not opposed to the idea that your great bow wielding ranger may WELL be the most overall effective single character build around and the reason for that may well be all the damage he can dish out. I'm just not automatically convinced that it overbalances all the things that casters can do.

To avoid having a damage bonus apply to AoE's, it's pretty straightforward: confine the bonus to ranged or melee attacks. That's why IAoP don't help Come And Get It or Warrior's Urging.

OTOH, a ranger straps on some iron armbands, and he can get that damage bonus on every hit from a Blade Cascade. Yet IoAP continue to exist un-nerfed. If they merit existence, a similar item for casters is perfectly valid.

Sure, but the Ranger gets to do one or two of this kind of attack in a day and they're close burst powers at best. The Wizard (who isn't even a striker) can do a range 10 3x3 burst EVERY ROUND if he wants, can lay down a 5x5 zone of autodamage that blocks LoS, a wall of fire, etc. If you're going to slap a +2/+4/+6 damage bonus onto those attacks every single round for every target, YES you are going to bust lose some game balance pretty soon. I assure you.

Most of the games I've run have been in mid-high heroic and low paragon. At those levels I think weapon users actually have the best of it over casters and yet time and time again I've seen Wizards turn an encounter into swiss cheese with the flick of an implement. The Fighters, Rogues, and Rangers were in there every fight chewing away like mad and pinning the enemy down, so they weren't less important and I'm not saying I haven't seen them downright win a fight with awesome either, but the Wizards and the much maligned poor old Starlock (who is actually pretty darn nasty despite the classes bad rep) definitely pull off the "I Win" quite a bit more often than the melee chaps do.

I don't think it would hurt for some casters to get a little extra juice on single-target attacks. Warlocks certainly could use it. It wouldn't really hurt Wizards either (though the Essentials buffs to encounter spells and Mage school features may change my mind on that). I'm just not convinced that weapon users actually end up far ahead across the board as some people seem to like to claim.

 

[Saeviomagy]

... but the DM can give out other arms slot items instead without knowing for certain they will be disdained and slagged to residuum at the first opportunity to make an IAoP...

They're still going to be disdained and slagged - the rarity just means that they'll be slagged to boost one of the big three OR those IAoP that your DM gave one character last tier.

Come and Get It MIGHT swing an encounter, of course. Anything MIGHT, and it is a perfectly fine power. OTOH Flaming Sphere WILL win an encounter except under the most adverse possible circumstances. Consecrated Ground WILL win an encounter almost every time. There IS a difference.

At least part of which is that Come and Get It is an encounter power, while flaming sphere and consecrated ground are dailies. The fact that they're at all comparable is a little silly.

If it was a party of 5 rangers would be invincible and that just doesn't pan out in practice.

Actually, in the only competive by-the-rules event that we've seen so far, a party of 5 rangers was the undisputed champion, with a significant lead over any other participant.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

They're still going to be disdained and slagged - the rarity just means that they'll be slagged to boost one of the big three OR those IAoP that your DM gave one character last tier.

Except of course for the fact that all the other PCs actually need good gear as well, so yeah, not so much. There are plenty of other fine items for other characters to use that they will like and get just as much utility out of. Lets not get too carried away here.

At least part of which is that Come and Get It is an encounter power, while flaming sphere and consecrated ground are dailies. The fact that they're at all comparable is a little silly.

So? I just saw a Wizard totally rule an entire encounter with Thunderwave a while back too. Last I checked that was an at-will, and it was a tough encounter for level 8 characters at that. Believe me, anyone claiming spell casters are weaker than weapon users hasn't played them much or something.

Actually, in the only competive by-the-rules event that we've seen so far, a party of 5 rangers was the undisputed champion, with a significant lead over any other participant.

Sure, and I can devise an adventure that will be rocked by 5 clerics, or 5 shamans etc too. Nobody is claiming that the ranger isn't a great class. Stating that it dominates the game and nobody else can keep up with weapon users is just not accurate. Actually I'll take my 5 shamans against your 5 rangers any day of the week.

 

[gourdcaptain]

I'm going to regret asking, but what about Staffs of Ruin and Siberys Shards of the Mage for implement users?

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm going to regret asking, but what about Staffs of Ruin and Siberys Shards of the Mage for implement users?

Good question.

First, staffs are not useable by all implement users. And picking a Staff of Ruin significantly limits the implement user with regard to implement selection. With Bracers of Mighty Striking or Iron Armbands of Power, a melee PC can still get a cool weapon. Best of both worlds.

The Shards are not always allowed in every non-Eberron campaign. The shard also augments a weapon. Not all implements are weapons. The shard is also +1/3/5 damage. Bracers of Mighty Striking (for some Essential PCs), Bracers of the Perfect Shot, or Iron Armbands of Power are +2/4/6 damage. And there are a lot of specialized martial damage items like Horned Helms or Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrads. Or, even simple things like Greatbows at a D12 instead of a D6.

Granted, Iron Armbands of Power are an item bonus, but then, so is the Staff of Ruin.

Can someone use the staff and shard together for a good damage bonus with the proper class or feats? Sure. But, the melee PC can get a good damage bonus and still get a cool weapon. His weapon alone is typically 0 to 3 more points of damage than many implement powers.

And there are a lot more weapon bonus damage feats than implement ones.

 

[MrMyth]

Superior Implements have somewhat addressed these concerns... but yeah, the disparity between weapon and implement users has bugged me since PHB1 (where it was pretty clear that rogues and rangers were well ahead of warlocks as actual strikers.)

Now, much of that has since been fixed in various ways. I think the core problem remains, but a lot of feat, power and item support has artificially provided solutions to the problems.

Which, in some ways, is good enough for now - you can build effective characters either way. But it is something I hope gets addressed eventually down the line, or at least gets taken into account whenever they start planning for the next edition.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

With the new implement rules though Staff of Ruin is no more than a single feat away from all arcane casters, and staff is an implement for invokers and druids as well. It would take 2 feats for a cleric or other caster to use one, which is a bit steep. Still, the accessibility is much improved over the situation in pre-Essentials implement rules. With DIS you can also use the damage bonus and still cast with the implement of your choice. So in effect for some PCs a Staff of Ruin is pretty much the equivalent of something like IAoP, while for others it is a reasonable but not free option, and for still others a fairly expensive option.

As KD says, there are not the wide variety of ways to get damage bonuses with implements. A few exist, but they almost invariably involve taking a feat. For instance you can pick up Superior Implement Proficiency and use superior implements.

 

[Marshall]

With the new implement rules though Staff of Ruin is no more than a single feat away from all arcane casters, and staff is an implement for invokers and druids as well. It would take 2 feats for a cleric or other caster to use one, which is a bit steep. Still, the accessibility is much improved over the situation in pre-Essentials implement rules.

You're making KD's point here. Implement users need to spend feats or get "this specific implement" to approach what a Weapon user can do with a little used slot and a relatively inexpensive item.

With DIS you can also use the damage bonus and still cast with the implement of your choice. So in effect for some PCs a Staff of Ruin is pretty much the equivalent of something like IAoP, while for others it is a reasonable but not free option, and for still others a fairly expensive option.

No, you cant. To get the damage bonus you have to use the SoR.

As KD says, there are not the wide variety of ways to get damage bonuses with implements. A few exist, but they almost invariably involve taking a feat. For instance you can pick up Superior Implement Proficiency and use superior implements.

Again, you're just making KD's point. Comparing Superior Implements to Superior Weapons shows how catastrophically bad the implement choices are. Energized effectively increases the die size of your implement attacks the same way that a d12 is an increase from a d8, but it only works for that energy type of attack. Using a superior implement eliminates 80% of your power selection or, again, forces a PC to use a specific enchantment, all of which are uncommon now(another idiocy of the CUR rules).
Implement users are handcuffed over and over again by the rules, item selections and then again by their power choices. The change to proficiency helped, but even there the devs just added another set of shackles when they removed the first.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm not really trying to make a point. Just laying out how things are. Yes, implements are more limited than weapons. The point is there are still options. Also, superior implements aren't as limiting as you make them out to be. Not every type is available for every implement, but so what? You pick what you want from a significantly larger set of choices now, all of which have advantages. MANY of the choices are QUITE good!

I don't understand what you mean by 'new shackles', the new implement rules are strictly better for casters than the old ones. Sometimes MUCH better. At this point any caster can effectively get access to any implement.

DIS absolutely gives you a damage bonus. You don't need SoR. If it didn't then exactly what would be the point of taking it?

 

[Nifft]

Actually, in the only competive by-the-rules event that we've seen so far, a party of 5 rangers was the undisputed champion, with a significant lead over any other participant.

That's hilarious. Were they all vanilla Rangers, or did they use builds which took them into other roles (i.e. you can turn a Ranger into a Defender with the right paragon path)?

Cheers, -- N