Magic Items And Campaign Balance?

[Old One]

A market does exist...

I'm glad that your low magic game is working out. However, fewer magical items has a much greater impact at higher levels, when spell casters have more, and more powerful spells. Even your single classed spell caster doesn't have 3rd level spells. Also, at lower levels, even base wealth provides only a few items.

However, you made an interesting comment: They discovered several other items in their travels, but sold them to raise money for training and other equipment.

You just established that there's some kind of market for magical items. That doesn't mean that every place sells them, or that every single item is availible.

Hammerhead -

A market does exist and there are magic items available (primarily in larger towns). What doesn't exist is the fully stocked Magic-R-Us in every hamlet. Virtually every magic item IMC has some manner of history (ie, created by someone for someone). Those capable of crafting items very rarely do it on "spec"...an item must be commissioned and power components need to be provided/purchased/obtained for permanent items.

Low(er) magic doesn't mean no magic! IMC, it means that items are not as readily available and that obtaining them or crafting them is more difficult. Interestingly, only one of the 5 PCs has taken an item creation feat (Brew Potion).

Another thing to keep in mind is that the party has been operating from a very small village for much of the campaign and only recently made their way to a larger town. The town has more "stuff" available, but, for the most part, it must be commissioned.

With the exception of a brief "Monty Haul" stint early in my DMing career, I have never been comfortable with characters being defined by and dependent on how much cool "stuff" they have. On the rare instances that I have DMed for a player who does, we have usually parted ways fairly quickly!

~ Old One

 

[Hammerhead]

Yes, I hate the Magic Mart too. I doubt that it could be defended well enough to defeat a very skilled thief all the time, and the value of its goods would attract such people.

Relatively cheap potions and scrolls would be the most common items, obviously. Most items would have to be commisioned. However, there'd be a few powerful items floating around for sale, just maybe not the ones you want.

Even the oft- maligned FR setting doesn't have such unlimited selection magic shops. The more powerful, and thus expensive, items are going to be too difficult to sell for them to be easily availible.

I much prefer a more self-sufficient party with some item creation feats. Then you don't have to worry about buying items with subtle curses, or giving your enemies a list of your abilities. Imagine a high level party that usually bought their items from Magic Mart. A clerk there accepts a bribe and gives the party's rival a list of every magic item they've bought and sold. Most of the group's abilities could then be deduced. Talk about an information advantage!

I don't think that having open magic selection helps the fighter that much. For example, I recently started running a high level FR game while I'm home. Some of them wanted a higher level game, and I wanted to try my hand at DMing. I don't believe I vetoed a single item for the characters. They made one Monk 15, a ranger 1/rogue 14, a fighter 2/pal 1/sorcerer 4/spellsword 8 with cleric cohort, and a single class ranger. Guess how many can fly? Only the spellsword, because he has the spell. The Monk also can sometimes reach flyers, because he has Spiderman-like web items. Guess how many can see invisible? Only the spellsword. Free magic item selection really helped them deal with their fighter type weaknesses, didn't it? BTW, I built the character for the player who wanted a spellsword, otherwise, I doubt anyone could see invisible.

Finally, I also don't like the dependency on magic items. My new "great" idea is to set up some sort of place where characters can undergo lengthy, expensive training to develop quasi-magical powers. By allowing themselves to be carefully pounded for many days, they could toughen their skin and gain natural armor bonuses. Or work on developing their inner eye and learn to see invisible. I don't think that such training would work well for magical weapons and armor, but it could probably work for some rings and wonderous items. Then the characters are really good because of all their practice and training, and not because everything they wear, including underwear, is magic powerful enough to blind low level wizards using detect magic.

 

[Ace]

Re: wrong game

I personally love low-magic item but high fantasy games (Conan genre, etc.). Unfortunately, D&D is not the game for that. There are many other systems that work fine for this type of game -- from GURPS to Feng Shui to HERO ...

SNIP."

In addition, creature abilities such as damage reduction, flight, invisibility, etherealness, etc., are much more powerful in a low-magic game. Even though the CR system is far from perfect, it does work reasonably well -- and a DM in this sort of game must reinvent the whole system to determine balance and appropriate experience. Likewise, some classes (rogue, barabarian, fighter, etc.) are at a severe combat disadvantage compared to the abilities of other classes (monk, sorceror, cleric, wizard) to overcome various creature abilities and defenses.

Finally, despite the addition of feats and a workable skill system to D&D, non-spellcasters do not have very many "abilities." Skill points are too few and feats too rare to really represent the range of abilities of any fictional fantasy character -- even at high levels. Magic items fill that roll in the game. Even more than helping in combat, the items add flexibility to the characters.

Now, even though I've mostly spoken against "low-magic" games, it is possible to run and have fun with such a setting. In my experience, though, those games never really work past 5th level or so (I'm sure many here will counter that with their own experiences, though). If you run such a game, here's what I think you need to consider:

(1) modifying the combat system, perhaps using defensive bonuses, armor, and Vitality/Wound points from Star Wars. This would reduce the necessity for defensive and healing magics.

(2) greatly limiting the more "magical" creatures in the game -- anything with damage reduction, etherealness, etc., must be rarer, or they would overrun large areas of civilization (and will certainly kill PCs more easily)

(3) Giving more skills and perhaps more feats (or using some other type of "special abilities"). Since the PCs won't have much magic to cover their weakness or to represent the "cool abilities" they see in fictional characters, add more to the characters themselves.

Sorry about not snipping but this post was too good not to leave intact.

As to your points, I have high, medium and low magic and magic item versions of my game world.

When I was working on it I came to the same conclusions you did vis a vis magic items-- To get around those problems I came up with some solutions that may be of use

1- wounds/vitality. I prefer the standard HP system in some ways so what I did is this.

All characters have a wounds equal to their constitution x a size mod. You die at -con wounds with bleeding as per system.
ROll HP as normal. You recover lost HP at 5% a week (this is directly modified from Chivalry and Sorcery) or at 1/5 the rate of HP healed by magic- round up. Double the healing rate and maximize (automatically) cure spells if a healers care is available. Half the rate if active.

Role HP normally. HP over wounds are treated as in the main system.

Damage to WP gives penalties as in Ken Hoods Grim N Gritty.

2- Defense bonus. I am in a bit of a quandry here. I will either use the Grim N Gritty defense rules (minus the armor penalty) as I have been or modify the unarmored fighting feat from Swasbukling D20. Not sure yet

3-The magic available determines the monsters available

4- Everybody gets 2 extra skill points a level and an extended skills list. I am using soemthing like the one in the Harn Conversion.
Skills are either Open (by class and culture) Closed (costs double)or in rare cases restricted.
I haven't done this yet but I may offer everyone a bonus regional feat in exchange for a background story. ALso I use the Feat Master pseudo class from the 3e tower--

requisite links

Feat master --

http://www.geocities.com/towerthebroken/featmaster.html

Grim N Gritty

http://www.sleepingimperium.rpghost.com/d20downloads.htm

Harn Conversion

http://www.nine.addr.com/guides.htm

 

[Ace]

A funny thing about my lower magic game is that the PCs actually have much more magical wealth than the DMG stipulates! One of the 8th level Monk PCs has a horn of undead summoning I'd put at nearly 75,000 gp, and the group recently killed an Archveult wizard and took his 6 ioun stones with a rated value of around 60,000 gp. To me it's the idea of any magic item being freely available for cash that bugs me about 3e's default rules - it doesn't seem credible, never mind realistic.

Well to each their own. In my high magic game items are basically expensive technology.

JUst as Night vision goggles cost $2500 (in the early 90's anyway) goggles of night cost 8000GP. Same difference

Now my economic system takes common magic into account. Basically most craftsmen and reasonably skilled people have a fair piece of money after all expenses a day to spend.

I figure most people other than slaves and serfs have money. The reason they are not out buying magic is the money is spent ona a house, a plow, time at the tavern and so on.

I haven't reworked the prices yet but as I see it Goggles of Night do not cost more than a mansion. Rather than screw sround with rpices of magic I will probably adjust the prices of goods

 

[Ace]

Another very campaign specific bet I would like to share is my Magic item design and commonality set up.

How I do magic---

All permanent items require power components. You may not spend XP on them. Instead you need appropriate Materials.

This has the effect of making stronger magic more common. If supplies are intermittent than make 1 item with several powers instead of a trinket or 5.

The weak items (+2 Ac Bracers wowee )are made of scraps and left over power component bits.

This way I keep the number of items down but the effects up

All charged items may use regular stuff---

Except wands and staves which cost 2x and are rechargable permanent items

Making items can be accomplished only by a spellcaster with three exceptions, 1 of which is pending

#1 There is a feat I allow called Spell Forging. It allows a smith to turn a masterwork item into a +1 item and a masterpiece (from Wheel of Time) item into a +2 (no special powers) item

This can be learned separately for missiles (runecutting) and armor

The prerequisite is a skill of 10 with a twenty required to forge +2 weapons. To use this skill you must multiply the manufacturing time (taking 20) of the item by 10x.

Thus many villages have a mastersmith who can make limited items.

#2 There are bonded items-- They start out weak and go up with the player. I don't have an origin story for them yet but I will. I probably will have a "Soul craft" feat available to let players start with one or get one later

#3 I may use the Alchemist class from Swashbuckling D20 or make a prestige class for folks with a high alchemy skill that will let them make limited potions. This is still under advisement.

This means that +1 items and one shot items can be bought in some large villages and up.

Now as to the permanent ones.

Well they are less common IMC until a period I call the Highmagic era.

The thing is while an individual caster may only make 3 -5 permanent items in his career, they will easily out last him. That sword he made-- still around.

The Bracers? Still work as good as new

After a thousand years magic items get more and more common.

Even though some of the wizards are still around (I allow life extending spells) most have died.

The magic, well it outlasts them....

Last Century 100 items made

This Century 100 items made

Next Century there are 160 items (20% of each MI generation are lost or destroyed) plus another hundred made

A century later--- 240 items plus another 120 made

You see over time the number of Wizards increases too.

Soon, where there was once a few hundred items now there are thousands....

Even if you have a fixed number of Wizards the progression will look like this

c1- 80
c2- 160
c3- 240
c4- 320
c5- 400
c6-480
c7-560
c8- 640

and so on. This is means very roughly in a millennium of steady creation magic items are 10x as common. So from the year 400 Byzantine Empire on Earth to late middle ages there would be a 10x increase in magic with a steady population

If you allow for a doubling of the population (possible) and longevity magic among some of the consumers

You can figure on magic costing about 1/3 of what it cost at the start.

Basically items would be 3x as common, 10x as common among adventurers

Disposables OTOH stay relatively static. The same number of potions and the like are made each year, basically x per caster and use and attrition take care of most of them .

Basically there is a very slight increase, about enough to cover for all those treasure hordes PC's like so much

 

[S'mon]

and so on. This is means very roughly in a millennium of steady creation magic items are 10x as common. So from the year 400 Byzantine Empire on Earth to late middle ages there would be a 10x increase in magic with a steady population

If you allow for a doubling of the population (possible) and longevity magic among some of the consumers

You can figure on magic costing about 1/3 of what it cost at the start.

Basically items would be 3x as common, 10x as common among adventurers

Disposables OTOH stay relatively static. The same number of potions and the like are made each year, basically x per caster and use and attrition take care of most of them .

Basically there is a very slight increase, about enough to cover for all those treasure hordes PC's like so much

Nice stats.

My gameworld has been runniing for nearly 400 years game-time so I need to take account of what permanent MI were made in different eras - eg 400 years ago GT (ca 1986 real time) the Old Empire was outfitting its elite strike teams with +1 longswords, so a fair number of those are still around and are the most commonly encountered magic weapon. 300-200 years ago (ca 1988-1990 real time) the Empire of the Red Wizards of Hel was a time when a lot of Wizard-only items like wands and staves were created - most of these are gone now, but some can be found in old treasure hordes. More recently it's been a magic-poor era, magic has been associated with the evil Red Wizards and little is created. Also the world's Magic Factor is slowly declining which will eventually limit things further.