D&D 5E Magic items in D&D Next: Remove them as PC dependant?

[Khaalis]

IMHO and from what I've seen stated on this board and others, the most major contributing factors of the major problem with 4E and the way people assumed magic item wish lists and purchasing is... putting magic items in the PHB.

By putting Magic Items in the PHB as part of the "Equipment" section available to players, this makes it the domain of the player and not the DM. As for the defense of only one paragraph in the DMG, try re-reading the PHB magic item section in the PHB1. It basically tells the player that their normal gear gets worthless and that they WILL get magic items. It even goes so far as to say that sometimes they will even be able to buy magic items and also pushes the use of the Enchant Magic ritual. All of these things give the fuel to the player to say "its right here in the PHB".

Yes, yes, the DM always has the right to say "no, not in my game" but that also often leads to the DM being a jerk and forging a DM vs. Player environment, which IMHO is never a good thing. D&D is a game and a form of entertainment - a shared experience for fun. This is why the DMG says if none of your player's use bows, don't put a bow in the treasure. Which rather than saying it, innuendos "because you should only give items the group can use". However, int he PHB it even gives the players the control of what to do even if they do get an item they don't want (sell or disenchant). As I mentioned before, in this respect the way they did magic items in 4E is very similar to itemization in MMOs.

Also, you have the problem of 4E embracing the organized play model, much more so than in the past. House Rules and DM fiat mean nothing in this environment and the rules embraced as written, require the magic item availability for the core math to work.

IMHO, these are major reasons where the view of 'players get what they want' comes from in 4E.

 

[Steely_Dan]

IMHO, these are major reasons where the view of 'players get what they want' comes from in 4E.

I agree with your entire post, and I think a bit of this indulgent player-pleasing (not that you want displeased players, everyone should be having fun) started in latter day 3rd Ed.

 

[Sunseeker]

Note the highlighted clause. If the party can't use a level 10 item, then why would you give it to them and count it against their treasure parcels? It isn't a treasure to them, its just a 'mathom'. Of course maybe they can sell it or disenchant it or trade it to someone for something, etc. You'll kinda have to use your judgement, but in no case should useless items be counted as treasure in the usual way. Can't say I disagree with them.

Exaclty, which is why I try really hard to see what my players have and then give them loot based on what could be an upgrade or fill an open spot for them. If the item isn't going to get used, why bother to include it short of lore reasons? Sure, you fight a bow and dagger wielding Amazon, she's not gonna give you a warhammer. Considering that items sell for 10-20% of their cost-to-produce, you'd be better off giving them the 200gp they're going to get anyway when they hock the bow they'll never use in the next town.

Of course, tracking what your players COULD use doesn't mean they'll end up using it, which of course leads to wish lists. I don't have a problem with players telling me or making a list for me of what they'd like to get in their loot. That DOESNT mean they'll get it, but it gives me a good idea of what they're looking for an helps me better tailor items to them when I have them drop.

 

[Hassassin]

If the item isn't going to get used, why bother to include it short of lore reasons?

For example:

Plot hook. Wonder who would buy this bow... I know, we should visit the elves of the High Forest. (Maybe a Gather Information result.)

Evolving character concepts. Gifted or found weapons often define mythical heroes, even if they weren't known to use that weapon before. You can't be sure the characters won't switch.

More flavorful loot. Just finding gold is boring. Magic items have utility to their previous owner so it is easy to explain why someone would carry a valuable one with them.

 

[Sunseeker]

For example:

Plot hook. Wonder who would buy this bow... I know, we should visit the elves of the High Forest. (Maybe a Gather Information result.)

That's a "lore reason", IMO. Items that are essentially "quest items" are fine, because there's no actual expectation for a player to use them.

Evolving character concepts. Gifted or found weapons often define mythical heroes, even if they weren't known to use that weapon before. You can't be sure the characters won't switch.

No, but it's not my place as DM to prod players into evolving their characters. A PC will change as much or as little as it's player wills it to. You can't compare this to a narrated story, because the narrator knows that the character is going to change in the future...because that's how they wrote them.

More flavorful loot. Just finding gold is boring. Magic items have utility to their previous owner so it is easy to explain why someone would carry a valuable one with them.

I'm not suggesting only giving players gold off enemies, in fact few enemies will have any of that to begin with. Smart enemies will likely store all their treasure in a special treasure room, defeating said treasure's owner may not be a requirement to get their treasure. I'm only suggesting "smart loot". If a DM KNOWS that an item is useless to a party, don't give it out.

Giving players utility is fine, but I prefer to do so in a way that makes it clear this is "utility". IE: a holy token with a healing spell in it. Use it once, heal, discard/sell/recharge. It doesn't replace any item they currently have, it doesn't force them to play in a manner they're not interested in. Instead of a bow that can deal lightning damage, give them a magic stone that can be shattered to add the effect temporarily to their current weapon? Not only does this add the utility, but it adds the utility for everyone, instead of for that one player who can use a bow.

 

[Holy Bovine]

As long as there are other rewards given then I'm fine with rare / unique magic items.

I just dislike the games where the characters end up wondering around with more money than god and nothing to spend it on.

The main advantage of D&D to me is there is ALWAYS something worth having just ahead.

This was always a big advantage of the older D&D systems - kingdom building (i.e. in AD&D 1E when you hit 'name level' (around 9th-11th) you are expected to start founding a base of some kind - castles for fighters, guilds for thieves etc). Having to finance a castle/wizard school/thieves guild always made sure money was tight but opened up a whole new world of adventure possibilities. This was a major reason I started up my Kingmaker Pathfinder game - I really wanted to see what the players would do with this kind of thing.

 

[Hassassin]

No, but it's not my place as DM to prod players into evolving their characters. A PC will change as much or as little as it's player wills it to. You can't compare this to a narrated story, because the narrator knows that the character is going to change in the future...because that's how they wrote them.

I view it as giving the players room to grow and evolve their characters. If you don't give them a variety to options to choose from, they have fewer chances to explore their concept.

If a DM KNOWS that an item is useless to a party, don't give it out.

A piece of art or a pair of earrings is probably useless to the party, but it's still good loot. It's the same with magic items, except it's much easier to justify someone carrying around a 2000 gp sword than a 2000 gp painting.

 

[Sunseeker]

I view it as giving the players room to grow and evolve their characters. If you don't give them a variety to options to choose from, they have fewer chances to explore their concept.

It's THEIR concept, why am I in charge of when they may evolve it? The chance is there at all times and if they express the desire or I catch it, I'll help them out, but I don't think the DMs position is to lean over to Timmy and say: "Hey, you're an elf warrior, why don't you explore your elven heritage of bow-loving with this shiny new bow!"

A piece of art or a pair of earrings is probably useless to the party, but it's still good loot. It's the same with magic items, except it's much easier to justify someone carrying around a 2000 gp sword than a 2000 gp painting.

Now we're talking about two different things.

Lets say we invade an evil king's castle. After slaying him and his evil wife, we get to basically raid his loot. From candelabra's to tapestries and paintings, this is essentially "gold"(or a better term from nightwrym, "bling"). Now, a player may want to take this priceless rug and put it on the floor of their own home. That's fine. Another player may want the wife's crystal earrings, that's fine too. But this is well...different than "gear" loot. Within the realm of "non-gear treasure" players can find all sorts of things that they may or may not want. Heck they might even find a way to sell the evil king's castle!

But when it comes to gear it's a more tailored option for me. Unless, like I said, the opponent dictates the drops(a leather clad bandit isn't going to drop plate anything), treasure is generally going to be in their benefit. Especially after epic battles with great foes who are more likely to have stored a great variety of treasure. Sure, they might find bows in here too, and someone might decide to explore that option. But they're still going to get at least one thing tailored primarily for their current playstyle.

 

[Recidivism]

IMHO and from what I've seen stated on this board and others, the most major contributing factors of the major problem with 4E and the way people assumed magic item wish lists and purchasing is... putting magic items in the PHB.

By putting Magic Items in the PHB as part of the "Equipment" section available to players, this makes it the domain of the player and not the DM. As for the defense of only one paragraph in the DMG, try re-reading the PHB magic item section in the PHB1. It basically tells the player that their normal gear gets worthless and that they WILL get magic items. It even goes so far as to say that sometimes they will even be able to buy magic items and also pushes the use of the Enchant Magic ritual. All of these things give the fuel to the player to say "its right here in the PHB".

Yes, yes, the DM always has the right to say "no, not in my game" but that also often leads to the DM being a jerk and forging a DM vs. Player environment, which IMHO is never a good thing. D&D is a game and a form of entertainment - a shared experience for fun. This is why the DMG says if none of your player's use bows, don't put a bow in the treasure. Which rather than saying it, innuendos "because you should only give items the group can use". However, int he PHB it even gives the players the control of what to do even if they do get an item they don't want (sell or disenchant). As I mentioned before, in this respect the way they did magic items in 4E is very similar to itemization in MMOs.

Also, you have the problem of 4E embracing the organized play model, much more so than in the past. House Rules and DM fiat mean nothing in this environment and the rules embraced as written, require the magic item availability for the core math to work.

IMHO, these are major reasons where the view of 'players get what they want' comes from in 4E.

I feel like Wizards' business model with the whole D&D Insider subscription model is actually more at fault than in which book an item is placed. The assumption is that anything you can build in the Character Generator is legal, even if it's not DM-approved. I've seen on many occasions players going to the Character Generator and picking some item that they wanted -- Most recently it was a Darksteel (IIRC) set of armor, which comes from the Shadowfell... But the players have never ventured there nor encountered any merchants who have. They weren't even in a town where an item might theoretically be acquired, but in the middle of a dangerous area. I ask this player, "Where did this item come from?" And I get this blank stare followed up with, "Character generator." Silly.

However I would say the biggest contributing factor is listing magic items with gold prices. I would prefer that magic items not have costs listed in gold at all, but rather in experience points. Cuts down on the idea that you can just buy or sell them at a merchant (you can't use XP like a currency), and would put the crafting cost up-front for those who want to craft items. For those who want merchanting, there could be a conversion formula into gold laid out somewhere.

 

[Starfox]

However I would say the biggest contributing factor is listing magic items with gold prices. I would prefer that magic items not have costs listed in gold at all, but rather in experience points. Cuts down on the idea that you can just buy or sell them at a merchant (you can't use XP like a currency), and would put the crafting cost up-front for those who want to craft items. For those who want merchanting, there could be a conversion formula into gold laid out somewhere.

Do this, and xp becomes a currency right quick. Which, with appropriate Xp costs, might not be so bad. In my homebrew game where magic items do cost points, and players have the option of getting some just by describing how they go about it, there are very few magic items (1 that i can recall) because the players prefer to spend their points on their characters, not their gear.