Magic items sold at half price...

[hong]

I think they forgot to make the distinction between selling loot and selling items you have crafted. Loot items follow the quoted rule, AFAIK. Items you create, especially if you were contracted to do them ahead of time, are sold at full market price.

I am usually more concerned by the term "market price". If no one is willing to pay that much, is it really the market price?

This is one of those things you're not supposed to think about. The point of the rules for buying and selling magic items is so that players and DMs can get the disposing of loot done with quickly, without having to haggle over the price of everything or make up rules of their own. This lets everyone get back to the REAL business of D&D, namely killing monsters and taking their stuff.

 

[AGGEMAM]

This lets everyone get back to the REAL business of D&D, namely killing monsters and taking their stuff.

Yeah!

 

[rhammer2]

I treat magic items as commodities [PHB p.96], therefore they always sell at 80-120% of market price (depending on the buyer).

It surprised me when I ran into this rule today in the PHB:



I'm pretty sure there was a Sage response a while back (or some designer's) that asserted that magic items were always sold by PCs for full "market price". This also brings up the question of exactly how item-crafters make any profit off selling their creations (if any). Anyone else similarly surprised by this language?

 

[Spatzimaus]

Like these guys said, it's purely an abstraction meant to make things more balanced.

My problem with these is, I don't think there SHOULD be such a built-in downside to being a "magic item shop", if the DM is willing to figure out demand for the items. I mean, just because you can make a Wand of Wishes doesn't mean anyone wants to pay that much for it.

Of course, you don't have to be happy with these rules, so you can make something more specialized. Here's what I did IMC (I've posted parts of this here before)

***HOUSE RULE***
The "Market Price" listed is like the Blue Book value. It's a theoretical value, where merchants ask for more than that and tradein values are less than that. The appraised value will be based on this number.

To determine how much something REALLY costs, you need to know your Margin.

Short Version: Merchants sell to you for (100 + 250/CHA)%, buy for (100 - 250/CHA)%

Long Version:
1> Take your CHA. The full stat, not the modifier.
2> If you want to haggle, add the results of an opposed skill check (Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate vs. Sense Motive, or whatever the DM thinks is appropriate for your negotiating style) Depending on your style, a badly failed check might end the conversation outright; most merchants accept a little haggling but don't like being bullied or lied to. If the player is willing to roleplay the sale, be willing to give him a few extra points.
3> Add a circumstance modifier (usually -2 to +2) depending on how difficult the item is to find or how needed it is. Negative means higher prices. If it's a really bad situation (you're in the Ghoul Kingdom and you find someone selling Holy Water) it can be higher/lower.
4> Add a racial modifier (-2 to +2) depending on how the merchant's race views your race. Same race means +2, unfriendly races mean -2. Humans pretty much always are +0 both ways.
If they REALLY hate you, they just won't sell; this step assumes you're not at war or anything.
5> If the result is still less than 5 (practically impossible), set it to 5.
6> Take 250% and divide it by the result you have so far. That's the Margin. A merchant will sell you an item for 100+Margin% and buy from you at 100-Margin%.

It's not as complex as it sounds. A CHA 10 person with no unusual characteristics has a margin of 25%, which means he buys a +1 shield (1000gp) for 1250gp and sells at 750gp. The 500gp difference is the merchant's profit margin on the item. If you made the item yourself, the same price structure still works.
Now, if you had CHA 21, in an area where those +1 shields were common (+2 circumstance) and the merchant was friendly to you (+2 racial), it'd only cost you 1100 and you could sell one for 900. If you wanted to haggle you could probably lower it even more.
At the other extreme, a really ugly Half-Orc would end up paying 1500gp and selling for 500gp.

Feel free to just round stuff off wherever you feel like it; rounding the result to the nearest 5% works well. This is just a guideline to figure out how effective haggling should be. We originally came up with this as a way to keep CHA from being such a dump stat.

***/HOUSE RULE***

 

[LokiDR]

This is one of those things you're not supposed to think about. The point of the rules for buying and selling magic items is so that players and DMs can get the disposing of loot done with quickly, without having to haggle over the price of everything or make up rules of their own. This lets everyone get back to the REAL business of D&D, namely killing monsters and taking their stuff.

I agree that is what D&D tends (alot) to focus on. But what if a PC wants to take time off from adventuring and craft magic items to make some money? What if the PCs are merchants?

If the party (or some member there of) decide to go against the KILL KILL LOOT of D&D, what would you do?

 

[AGGEMAM]

Just keep the system. Otherwise NPC wizards of 9th level will end up starting with around 2 million in cash.

 

[LokiDR]

Like these guys said, it's purely an abstraction meant to make things more balanced.

My problem with these is, I don't think there SHOULD be such a built-in downside to being a "magic item shop", if the DM is willing to figure out demand for the items. I mean, just because you can make a Wand of Wishes doesn't mean anyone wants to pay that much for it.

Of course, you don't have to be happy with these rules, so you can make something more specialized. Here's what I did IMC (I've posted parts of this here before)

I don't want to rant on magic item shops, but I will say that many people do not like them. If you follow the random treasure for creatures, the house rule would allow you to control, down to a close margin, what magic items you have. That makes the character more powerful.

Isn't there a published rule (maybe in the Living campaigns) about a diplomancy check to haggle a price 10%?

 

[LokiDR]

Just keep the system. Otherwise NPC wizards of 9th level will end up starting with around 2 million in cash.

If you keep the "sell at 50%" rule, no NPC wizards would ever have money/experience, or they wouldn't create magic items. Recoup materials, not time or XP? No way.

 

[drnuncheon]

I agree that is what D&D tends (alot) to focus on. But what if a PC wants to take time off from adventuring and craft magic items to make some money? What if the PCs are merchants?

If they are merchants, and that's the focus of the game, then you're going to need a lot of detailed house rules anyway, so you should just use those.

If you wanted a really detailed system, you would need to take into account at least the following things:

1. Size of the market you are trying to sell in
2. Price of the item
3. Demand for the item
4. Time you want to take selling the item
   [/list=1]
   
   The quicker you want to sell, the lower the price is going to be. The smaller the market or the demand, the lower the price that you're able to get is going to be.
   
   As for PC crafters - well, most craftsmen did not make stuff to sit on the shelf - they received commissions and made the items to order. So instead, you'd need a system for determining how likely a commission is, how much it's going to be for, etc. Again, market size and demand for the item are going to be key factors, as is the presence of other casters who can make the item.
   
   J

 

[kreynolds]

Isn't there a published rule (maybe in the Living campaigns) about a diplomancy check to haggle a price 10%?

I think there was one in Dragon not long ago.