Magic/Mana points

Evendur said:
Where did you get your totals for the power points? I'm calculating approx. 215 powerpoints at 20th level with a key ability score of 18. 23 ninth level spells may seem heavy duty but I will be increasing the cost for higher level spells.

If you add up point for point, a clerics spells... not counting bonus spells from high wisdom, they will have 348 mana. Using the formula, Level 1 spells cost 1 mana, level 2 spells cost 3 mana, level 3 spells cost 5 mana, level 4 spells cost 7 mana, level 5 spells cost 9 mana, level 6 spells cost 11 mana, level 7 spells cost 13 mana, level 8 spells cost 15 mana, and level 9 spells cost 17 mana.

However I have created a new system, that I feel is balanced, but I have not tested it. Here is a sample of the cleric. Note: The mana totals you see each level do not include bonus spells nor domain spells. These are just plain ol' spells.

Code:
Spell 	Mana
Level	Cost
0	1
1	1
2	2
3	3
4	5
5	8
6	13
7	21
8	34
9	55

Cleric Mana

Level	Mana
1	2
2	4
3	6
4	10
5	15
6	23
7	31
8	43
9	55
10	71
11	88
12	108
13	131
14	155
15	182
16	210
17	245
18	277
19	316
20	348

At 20th level a person could cast 6 9th level spells... but would not have much mana left for other spells. Obviously bonus mana would allow them to cast more... but its far more balanced then the Psionic Handbook, I think.
 
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The system I use:
Take the memorisation charts from PHB 3.5.

For calculation of MP use 5 + 1 per spell level. Add them up per level and you have a mana pool total for every level.

Charge a wizard (or whoever) 10 + 2 per spell level in MP for casting....

Code:
TABLE 3-36: BASE DIVINE POWER

                    Dm.Lord         Partis.                     Partis.                     Partis.
    Arbiter         Numa    Elem.   (Cha)       Arbiter         (Cha)       Arbiter         (Cha)
    Templar Cleric  Pontif. Prec.   Ranger      Templar Cleric  Ranger      Templar Cleric  Ranger
Lv. (Wis)   (Wis)   (Wis)   (Wis)   (Wis)   Lv. (Wis)   (Wis)   (Wis)   Lv. (Wis)   (Wis)   (Wis)
1   21(1)   24(1)   15(PE)  22(PE)  -       11  178(6)  203(6)  13(3)   21  435     480     90
2   32      35      30      37      -       12  199     224     21      22  441     486     93
3   39(2)   45(2)   30      37      -       13  227(7)  258(7)  21      23  448     493     96
4   57      63      45      52      01(1)   14  250     281     27(4)   24  456     501     100
5   65(3)   75(3)   45      52      0       15  281(8)  319(8)  36      25  465     510     105
6   80      90      45      52      6       16  306     344     43      26  475     520     105
7   100(4)  115(4)  60      67      6       17  340(9)  385(9)  51      27  486     531     108
8   117     132     60      67      6(2)    18  367     412     57      28  498     543     111
9   134(5)  154(5)  60      67      6       19  403     448     81      29  511     556     115
10  153     173     60      67      13      20  430     475     90      +10 +95     +95     +30
1   At 4th and 5th levels a partisan or ranger can only cast 1st level spells if he receives bonus divine power for a high Cha score.


Code:
TABLE 3-35: BASE ARCANE POWER

    Avang.  
    Dragon  Bard    Defiler                     Bard    Defiler             Bard    Defiler
    T'liz   Rogue1  Preser. Phage   Warloc.     Rogue1  Preser. Warloc.     Rogue1  Preser. Warloc.
Lv. (Int)   (Cha)   (Int)   (Cha)   (Cha)   Lv. (Cha)   (Int)   (Cha)   Lv. (Cha)   (Int)   (Cha)
1   15(PE)  10(0)   21(1)   45(PE)  43(1)   11  87      162(6)  250     21  226     385     575
2   30      15(1)   32      60      54      12  96      183     293(6)  22  233     391     581
3   30      21      39(2)   75      60      13  96(5)   204     314     23  241     398     588
4   45      27(2)   52      90      87(2)   14  120     227     361(7)  24  246     406     596
5   45      40      60(3)   90      94      15  136     250     384     25  252     415     605
6   45      47      75      90      125(3)  16  143(6)  275     435(8)  26  254     425     615
7   60      47(3)   90(4)   90      140     17  172     300     460     27  261     436     626
8   60      62      107     90      175(4)  18  192     327     515(9)  28  269     448     638
9   60      70      124(5)  90      192     19  213     353     542     29  274     461     651
10  60      70(4)   143     90      231(5)  20  224     380     570     +10 +56     +95     +95
1   A rogue gains AP as a bard 20 levels lower than his actual level.

Hope that comes out alright. For reference, Partis. = Paladin, Warloc. = Sorceror, Defiler/Preser. = Wizard, Arbiter = Druid.

ciaran
 
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Aazenius said:
Code:
20	348

At 20th level a person could cast 6 9th level spells... but would not have much mana left for other spells. Obviously bonus mana would allow them to cast more... but its far more balanced then the Psionic Handbook, I think.
348 1st level spells at 20th level though? Ouch.

ciaran
 

Okay, here's the KEY thing you have to do.

A 1st level spell only has a caster level of 1, for purposes of random effects.

A 2nd level spell only has a caster level of 3, 3rd level of 5, etc.

This way, you can't cast 348 magic missiles per day and have them each have 5 missiles. Instead, each spell fires just one missile.
 

ciaran00 said:
348 1st level spells at 20th level though? Ouch.

ciaran

At 20th level if you really want to waste it on 1st level spells go right ahead. But I seriously doubt anyone in their right mind would. Why? Because most likely those spells will be resisted if they have saves. And in the case of Magic missile, 5d4+5 won't be hurting your average level 20 creature anytime soon. On average you'll be doing 15 points of damage, far less then what your typical Fighter will be doing with his 4 attacks. On average the fighter will be doing 20-30 points of damage with each attack, and if at least 2 attacks hit, that is 40-60 points of damage, compared to the 15 for magic missile.

I'd be more worried about the wizard or sorcerer chain casting maximized empowered fireballs, or Heightend Disintegrate.

I do like Rangers idea though...
 

Just for variety, here is the system I have been working on:

Spell casting

Spell Memorization Slots

A caster can have a total of 8 spells 'on tap' at one time (called spell memorization slots); these are the only spells that caster can cast, though they may know many more spells. Removing a spell from one of these 8 spell slots is a free action, but adding a spell takes 20 minutes per spell level of meditation. In addition to these 8 slots, clerics and druids can cast any spell that they can spontaneously cast. Clerics also get a 9th slot which can only be filled by one of their domain spells (domain spells can also go into any of the 8 main spell slots). Specialist wizards get a 9th spell slot that can only be filled with a spell from their specialty school.

Spell casters get mana points each level. These can be used to cast any spells - there are no spell slots. There is no difference between a sorcerer and a wizard (ie: sorcerers are deleted). 10% of a caster's mana points are regained after a full hour of rest, sleep or meditation. Multiclassed characters have one pool of mana points, which can be used to cast any spell they know.

Mana Points per Level

The first column is for wizards, druids and clerics; the second is for bards, and the third is for paladins and rangers. (So a Wizard 5/Cleric 1 has 12 mana points, 11 from wizard levels and 1 from cleric. If the 5th level wizard instead become a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 1, they would have 16 mana points).

cleric/wizard/druid
Level mana gained (total mana)
1 +1 (1)
2 +1 (2)
3 +2 (4)
4 +3 (7)
5 +4 (11)
6 +5 (16)
7 +6 (22)
8 +8 (30)
9 +9 (39)
10 +11 (50)
11 +13 (63)
12 +16 (79)
13 +19 (98)
14 +23 (121)
15 +27 (148)
16 +32 (180)
17 +37 (217)
18 +43 (260)
19 +49 (209)
20 +57 (266)

bards
Level
1 0
2 +1
3 +1 (2)
4 +2 (4)
5 +3 (7)
6 +3 (10)
7 +4 (14)
8 +4 (18)
9 +5 (23)
10 +6 (29)
11 +7 (36)
12 +8 (44)
13 +9 (53)
14 +10 (63)
15 +11 (74)
16 +12 (86)
17 +13 (99)
18 +14 (113)
19 +15 (128)
20 +16 (144)

paladin/ranger
Level
1 ---
2 ---
3 ---
4 0
5 0
6 +1
7 +1 (2)
8 +1 (3)
9 +1 (4)
10 +2 (6)
11 +2 (8)
12 +2 (10)
13 +2 (12)
14 +3 (15)
15 +3 (18)
16 +3 (21)
17 +3 (24)
18 +4 (28)
19 +4 (32)
20 +4 (36)



Bonus Mana for High Ability Scores

For characters that multiclass or take on a prestige class with spell casting, bonus mana is received only once.

Ability Bonus
12-13 +1
14-15 +2
16-17 +4
18-19 +7
20-21 +11
22-23 +16
24-25 +22
26-27 +29
28-29 +37
30-31 +46
32-33 +56
34-35 +67

Mana Cost by Spell Level

Spell level (cost): 0 (0); 1 (1); 2 (2); 3 (4); 4 (7); 5 (11); 6 (16); 7 (22); 8 (29); 9 (37)
(so to cast a 5th level spell costs 11 mana points)

Spell Availability

All casters must learn spells before they can cast them, however they do not need to keep spell books. Casters can learn 3 spells at 1st level (that is, the 1st level that they gain spellcasting), and 3 spells for every level gained (levels in a spell casting class). In addition, any character that can cast 0 level spells can learn up to 6 such spells for free (additional 0 level spells can always be taken from the 3 spells per level). The level at which they gain spell levels is the same as in the Player's Handbook (ie: wizards, druids and clerics gain 0 and 1st level spells at 1st level, 2nd level spells at 3rd level, 3rd level spells at 5th level, etc.). Casters cannot learn a spell that they are unable to cast. Any spell that can be cast sponaneously is automatically learned, in addition to the 3 spells per level. Specialist wizards can also learn one spell per level from their specialty school.

Spells that can be learned are the maximum number but, except for spontaneously cast spells, they are not learned automatically. The caster must learn spells from scrolls, or be taught the spell by someone who knows it. Spell slots can be saved, but they cannot be filled with spells higher than those that could have been learned originally (ie: a 2nd level wizard learns 2 spells only before leveling to 3rd level; they can now learn 4 spells, but the 1 saved slot has to be filled with a 0 or 1st level spell).

A caster can unlearn one spell every time they gain a level (and replace it, thereby learning 4 new spells that level).

Metamagic Feats

Metamagic feats affect spell level normally. They can be added to a spell as a free action.

Feats

Extra Spell Slot: Prerequisite: 5th level; Give the caster another spell memorization slot. This feat can be taken a maximum of once for every five levels (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels).

Fast Memorization: Reduces the time to memorize a spell into a spell memorization slot to 10 minutes per spell level. Taking this feat a second time reduces this to 5 minutes per spell level.

Improved Mana Recovery: The character gains 15% of their mana after an hour of rest, sleep or meditation. Taking this feat a second time improves this to 20%.

Reduced Mana: Prerequisite: Ability to cast 4th level spells: All spells from one school of magic have their cost to cast reduced as if the spells were one level less (minimum 1 mana point).

[the tables didn't come out perfectly, but it should be readable...]

craftyrat
 

RangerWickett said:
Okay, here's the KEY thing you have to do.

A 1st level spell only has a caster level of 1, for purposes of random effects.

A 2nd level spell only has a caster level of 3, 3rd level of 5, etc.

This way, you can't cast 348 magic missiles per day and have them each have 5 missiles. Instead, each spell fires just one missile.
I think I like it. How much mana does it cost to expand a spell by 2 levels (ie: a magic missile cast at 3rd for example with 2 missiles?)

Isn't it unfair charging 1 mana/level since a fireball is better than a magic missile with 2 missiles?

ciaran
 
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Sovreign stone has a points based system which retains spell books, I think. It looks quite interesting at first glance, but I haven't studied it in detail, let alone tried it in play.


glass.
 

RangerWickett said:
Okay, here's the KEY thing you have to do.

A 1st level spell only has a caster level of 1, for purposes of random effects.

A 2nd level spell only has a caster level of 3, 3rd level of 5, etc.

This way, you can't cast 348 magic missiles per day and have them each have 5 missiles. Instead, each spell fires just one missile.

I like that. That's one of the key differences between magic and psionics anyway, the scaleability. How about this version?

By expending the base amount of mana points, the spell is cast at a caster level of 0. To cast a spell at a higher caster level, you must spend one additional power point/level, up to a maximum of your caster level.

Sort of like the heighten power feat.
 

Well, for basic spells, all 1st level spells are 1 MP
2nd level = 3 MP
3rd level = 5 MP
4th = 7 MP
5th = 9 MP
6th = 11 MP
7th = 13 MP
8th = 15 MP
9th = 17 MP

The above listing is the spell's minimum cost. When you cast a spell like that, the spell's caster level is equal to the MP you spend. If you spend more MP, the caster level increases.

A magic missile cast at 5th level would cost 5 MP and deal 3d4+3, no save. A fireball cast at 5th level would cost 5 MP and deal 5d6, Reflex save for half, larger area. Of course the fireball is better than the magic missile; it's a 3rd level spell, the missile's just first level. If the missile could scale up and be equal to the fireball, there'd be no reason to take higher-level Evocations.
 

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