Magic missile too strong?

[DM-Rocco]

PHBII options and non-core books aside, you get that sorcerors learn their spells later than wizards, right? That they cannot use metamagic very well due to the full round casting time? That they get very few spells known and MUST make choices that WILL hurt the character (with any level of intelligence, you cannot squeeze blood from a turnip, nor can you get the full array of useful spells from that few choices)? That they get a LOT fewer feats than wizards? That their key casting ability is less useful in general than the wizards key casting ability? That wizards get to specialize in schools to increase their spell slots to about where sorceror's are at? That Wizatds can still write almost any spell into their spell book and leave slots open to memorize a new spell in the middle of the day? That wizards can use spellbooks found on opponants but sorcerors cannot?

To put it a different way, why do you think virtually every D&D game designer, and almost all players and DMs, disagree with you on this subject?

Well, if you put aside variant rules form PHBII, sorcerers are still over powered IMO cause of the spontaneous casting ability. Who cares if it is a full round action, your ability to add Meta magics feats on the fly at the cost of your movement for the round is huge. So is your ability to ditch higher level spell slots to get more lower level spells. You still get more spells than a wizard and don't tell me you haven't, either in the past or currently, thought about adding in 2 levels of paladin to get awesome saving throws. Why, cause sorcerer is a class made to be broken and used as a metagame machine.

I don't think you are looking at it objectively and I think that, IMOP, it stems from the fact that you probably play sorcerers over wizards all the time.

And, I don't hink I am along in my thoughts on this, in fact I know I am not, so please don't speak for the whole community.

 

[KarinsDad]

The point I was trying to make that all of the things I listed work towards making it balanced.

To sum up:

A caster gets a limited number of missiles to cast (1 + 1 every other level up to a max of 5).

A caster has a limited number of spells to use. A sorcerer knows few and must decide which to "learn". Hence the caster is using up his major resources to cast magic missile instead of other spells.

There are spells and tactics available at 1st level that can be used to negate magic missiles. {You may disagree with how valuable they are, but they do exist and are available. SO it is not like the spell can't be defeated at all.}

And my point is that the spells and tactics you listed as useable against it aren't worth squat in a balance discussion, hence, they did not add to your point. They are white noise.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You say "except in dungeon crawls" as if it's the same tone as "except during a blue moon" as opposed to "except when the sun shines".

Actually, I meant it as a sweeping generalization for "except when combats occur very close together and not spread out over the day."

Or are you really saying that in your own games hr/lev and rd/lev usually mean the same thing? I think this is one of those times where Infinit2k is playing devils advocate and hoping nobody notices

I had not realized I garnered that reputation.

Oh, and shield is min/lev, thank-you-very-much!

 

[KarinsDad]

To put it a different way, why do you think virtually every D&D game designer, and almost all players and DMs, disagree with you on this subject?

Speak for yourself.

A Metamagic Sorcerer (in the core rules) is the most powerful and even versatile at higher levels class in the game. They are only weak at low levels.

Thanee kicks butt with his (her?) Sorcerer all of the time.

 

[prosfilaes]

I don't think you are looking at it objectively and I think that, IMOP, it stems from the fact that you probably play sorcerers over wizards all the time.

Let's not make this personal, huh? I've played both a wizard and a sorceror, and find my limited spell list to be crippling. I never get to cast utility spells; why take Dispel Magic when the clerics can cast it? Adding a metamagic feat means adding a material focus--a big disc with concentric red circles on it.

 

[Mistwell]

Your sorceror was casting Magic Missile instead of Confusion (stand back and watch your enemies kill each other), Polymorph (arguably the best buff spell in the entire game), Eneveration (1d4 negative levels is nasty, especially vs. spellcasters), Evard's Black Tentacles (grapple multiple opponents at once), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (take one meele-type enemy out of the fight with a Reflex save spell), Greater Invisibility (keep yourself safe or give the rogue unlimited sneak attack potential), or Stoneskin (DR 10/adamantine is huge at 8th-9th level)?

If I was grouped with a sorceror who did that, either he or I would be looking for a new party at the end of the adventure. There are so many things you can do with a 4th level spell slot that are vastly more effective than casting a Magic Missile (and I'm even just limiting myself to core spells here) that I really have to wonder about someone who would use them for that purpose over and over again.

Monte Cook said the same thing was happening in his games. So did Sean K Reynolds I believe. It's really not that unusual, particularly at the end of the day where that 4th level slot is still there and you NEED to hit the target more than you need to do massive damage. Given the extremely small number of 4th level spells known by a mid level caster, it's not even uncommon they would know NO offensive spells of that level.

And she DID know and use greater invisibility, and fly, and many non-offense spells. We are discussing offensive spells however, not the rest of it. In fact, her knowledge of those other spells is WHY magic missle is so useful - it's an all-purpose offense spell that can take the place of knowing other offensive spells so you can learn the non-offense spells.

 

[Mistwell]

Well, if you put aside variant rules form PHBII, sorcerers are still over powered IMO cause of the spontaneous casting ability. Who cares if it is a full round action, your ability to add Meta magics feats on the fly at the cost of your movement for the round is huge. So is your ability to ditch higher level spell slots to get more lower level spells. You still get more spells than a wizard and don't tell me you haven't, either in the past or currently, thought about adding in 2 levels of paladin to get awesome saving throws. Why, cause sorcerer is a class made to be broken and used as a metagame machine.

Not only have I never considered adding a non-casting class to a casting class, but I think you just went from an extremely small minority to an island of one on this opinion. Unless you are doing it for RP purposes (which is a legit reason), NOBODY should be considering multiclassing in that way as it is about the least optimal thing you can do.

I don't think you are looking at it objectively and I think that, IMOP, it stems from the fact that you probably play sorcerers over wizards all the time.

I am looking at it objectively, and I do not play sorcerors, ever, because they are so underpowered.

And, I don't hink I am along in my thoughts on this, in fact I know I am not, so please don't speak for the whole community.

I was not speaking for the whole community, just the vast majority. And it's based on polls we have done on this board since 3.0 came out. Would you like me to dig some of them up? Would it help if I held a new poll and asked people whether they thought the sorceror was more or less powerful than the wizard?

 

[Mistwell]

Speak for yourself.

A Metamagic Sorcerer (in the core rules) is the most powerful and even versatile at higher levels class in the game. They are only weak at low levels.

Thanee kicks butt with his (her?) Sorcerer all of the time.

Thanee is THE ruler of the sorceror. The undisputed master of that class. If it can be twinked, fiddled, gamed, or munched into being a powerful class, Thanee can do it. But you know, I know, and everyone knows that it took Thanee a huge amount of work and experience to get to the point where the sorceror is power in his/her hands. I think we are talking about your average player, in your average game. And, like the bard, the sorceror is a fine class that just ins't quite up to the power of the wizard class. They can be fun, there are times where their strengths outweigh their weaknesses, but on-balance they are not as powerful as the wizard class, and not "broken" in general as far as classes go (which is what I was disputing, the accusation that the class is not just overpowered, but it was literally called Broken in this thread).

Do you honestly think the sorceror class is broken? If not, why not speak up and tell that person your opinion on the brokeness of that class.

 

[Nail]

FWIW (and siding with Mistwell), the groups I've played in (levels 1st thru 23rd) have *never* found Sorcerers to be over-powered. Sorcerer is a fine class, and for some player-types it's better than others.

But over-powered? Not a chance. Heck, I'd call 'em "weak" and give 'em d6 HD to compensate.

Now: Magic Missile is a fine spell. I've seen it used (or used it myself) often enough. But it's not broken: both its average damage and its damage cap keep that from happening.

 

[Twowolves]

If 99% of your NPCs DON'T lack a brooch of shielding and an already-up shield spell, you're probably metagaming as a DM. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not the norm either.

IIRC, a Brooch of Shielding costs 1500gp to buy, 750gp to make, and can be made by a 3rd level character. It's not metagaming for NPCs to have one, it's common sense. Anyone above 5th level who expects to someday encounter a hostile arcane caster (ie: lots of NPCs with class levels) should have one. In other words, it might not be everywhere, but it stands to reason that it should.