Magic missile too strong?

[Hypersmurf]

Which seems to imply that anything that can target the caster of the images can also target the images.

I don't agree at all. Someone attempting to cast a spell at you must select from indistinguishable targets. Once they've selected, then you randomly roll to see if they selected a creature or a figment.

If it's not a creature, a spell that can only target a creature cannot conform to the conditions, and fails.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

Nor does Magic Missile hold up in common circumstances when compared to what other spells can do. Particularly 4th level spells.

Can Magic Missile cause your opponents to fight each other?

Saving throw.

Can Magic Missile give the party fighter +4/+6 to Strength, a +5 natural armor bonus, 10 foot natural reach, and possibly even a Dex bonus as well?

Not talking about non-direct-offense spells. Indeed, you have space to take those non-attack spells BECAUSE of how effective magic missle is.

Can Magic Missile grapple multiple foes at once and crush them to death?

Covers a wider range than just the target thus jeopardizing your allies, and also the "grapple to death" is hotly contested I believe. Let's not go there in this thread.

Can Magic Missile take a meele-oriented enemy completely out of the fight with a Reflex save (which meele-oriented combatants are usually pretty bad at)?

Saving throw.

Can Magic Missile give someone up to four negative levels, resulting in penalties to just about every die roll, and spellcasters losing access to their highest levels of spells?

Ranged attack roll.

Can Magic Missile give someone 10 points of DR that is probably unbeatable in most cases at 8th level?

Again, not an attack spell.

If the sorceress in your group is routinely using 4th level slots to cast Magic Missile, she either has a suboptimal selection of combat spells or simply doesn't know what she's doing.

She isn't built for dealing direct damage with a wide variety of spells (not all sorcerors are). Thus, those times when she DOES have to deal direct damage, and it's a situation where it's hard to make a ranged touch attack or an ally would be hit by an area spell, she casts magic missle. I'm not sure why that is so unheard of. What spell would you cast if you thought you would miss due to your target having cover, and they were next to one or more of your allies, and you figure the target has good saves anyway?

Often, the use of the 4th level slot for MM comes in those kinds of situations, usually near the end of the day where there isn't a strong need for those spell slots anyway.

And one other thing, Magic Missile's damage AND number of targets don't increase with level, the damage OR the number of targets increases. Big difference.

Level 1 I can target one create with 1d4+1 damage. Level 7 I can target two creatures for 2d4+2 damage each. You can increase the number of targets and the damage done as your levels increase.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Y'know...this always pops up every so often.

I don't particularly care if MM is overpowered.

I don't use it for PCs myself because its bland. (In fact, the only time I've ever used it is for foes my players must face.)

Oh, and for the record, I've been in the "MM targets (and potentially dispels) illusions as if they were real" since 1978.

 

[wedgeski]

I think the OP's point that his Sorc friend routinely uses 4th level spell slots for magic missile says more about her spell selection than the power of the spell, which is not at all a criticism, given that Mistwell has described her as a 'utility' mage (or words to that effect). In that case a MM is a perfectly valid way to spend a 4th level slot if its benefit to the party is greater than any of the 4th level utility spells she has in her repertoire.

BUT, I've seen the general argument for magic missile played out in my very own group, and I can tell you that a Sorc who chooses Weapon Focus (Ray) and only has to make a ranged touch attack to land multiple scorching ray's will dump MM just as fast as you like. That a spell grants a saving throw or requires an attack roll is a poor justification for abandoning it - most Sorcs will already have gone out of their way to mitigate those factors.

 

[Benimoto]

BUT, I've seen the general argument for magic missile played out in my very own group, and I can tell you that a Sorc who chooses Weapon Focus (Ray) and only has to make a ranged touch attack to land multiple scorching ray's will dump MM just as fast as you like. That a spell grants a saving throw or requires an attack roll is a poor justification for abandoning it - most Sorcs will already have gone out of their way to mitigate those factors.

Sure, but in more games, the PCs with better DCs or touch attack rolls have sacrificed in some way that the Magic Missiler didn't have to. Both by using feats or by putting more points in a casting stat, or in dex. The magic missiler is free to sink points into con, or use his feats or spell slots on stuff like item creation that might have greater value to the party that a pure blasting sorc. All while mosly keeping up in the damage department.

 

[Grog]

Not talking about non-direct-offense spells. Indeed, you have space to take those non-attack spells BECAUSE of how effective magic missle is.

What does it matter whether it's a "direct" offense spell or not? The fact is that Polymorph is a very effective combat spell (vastly more so than Magic Missile), and it has plenty of non-combat uses too.

Covers a wider range than just the target thus jeopardizing your allies,

Only if the caster is a moron and catches their allies in the area of effect. Even if an opponent is standing right next to an ally, it's still possible to target the spell so the opponent is within the area of effect and the ally isn't.

And, I love the way you dismiss most of the other spells just by saying "saving throw." Look at the saving throw bonuses most CR 8 monsters have and compare them to the DC 19 or so that an 8th level caster is going to be tossing. Most of those monsters are going to be failing their saving throws at least two-thirds of the time, possibly more, assuming the caster targets their weak save. It's much more effective to cast a Confusion spell on a group of four meele brutes and confuse three of them than it is to do 18 points of damage or so to one of them.

She isn't built for dealing direct damage with a wide variety of spells (not all sorcerors are).

Direct damage is far from the only thing a sorceror can do. In many cases, they have much better options open to them.

Thus, those times when she DOES have to deal direct damage, and it's a situation where it's hard to make a ranged touch attack or an ally would be hit by an area spell, she casts magic missle. I'm not sure why that is so unheard of. What spell would you cast if you thought you would miss due to your target having cover, and they were next to one or more of your allies, and you figure the target has good saves anyway?

And how often are all three of those things true? And besides, "good saves" aren't nearly as common as you seem to think they are, someone next to an ally can still be targeted with an area spell without hitting the ally, and cover can often be gotten around or or a spell (not just Magic Missile) can be used where it's not an issue.

Level 1 I can target one create with 1d4+1 damage. Level 7 I can target two creatures for 2d4+2 damage each. You can increase the number of targets and the damage done as your levels increase.

By a miniscule amount.

At level 7 I can target eight creatures with a fireball for 7d6 damage each. How does that compare?

 

[Grog]

I think the OP's point that his Sorc friend routinely uses 4th level spell slots for magic missile says more about her spell selection than the power of the spell, which is not at all a criticism, given that Mistwell has described her as a 'utility' mage (or words to that effect). In that case a MM is a perfectly valid way to spend a 4th level slot if its benefit to the party is greater than any of the 4th level utility spells she has in her repertoire.

I agree.

But that's not evidence that Magic Missile is overpowered, it's just evidence that this sorceror doesn't have a good selection of combat spells. (And note, "combat spells" and "damage spells" are NOT necessarily the same thing).

Sure, but in more games, the PCs with better DCs or touch attack rolls have sacrificed in some way that the Magic Missiler didn't have to. Both by using feats or by putting more points in a casting stat, or in dex. The magic missiler is free to sink points into con, or use his feats or spell slots on stuff like item creation that might have greater value to the party that a pure blasting sorc. All while mosly keeping up in the damage department.

Say my party has two 10th level Wizards and we're facing three Hill Giants (EL 10).

Wizard #1 casts Magic Missile and hits one of them for 18 damage. Total damage dealt: 18.

Wizard #2 casts Fireball and hits two of them for 35 damage and one for 17 damage (saved). Total damage dealt: 87.

How is the magic missiler "mostly keeping up" in damage?

 

[Benimoto]

Say my party has two 10th level Wizards and we're facing three Hill Giants (EL 10).

Wizard #1 casts Magic Missile and hits one of them for 18 damage. Total damage dealt: 18.

Wizard #2 casts Fireball and hits two of them for 35 damage and one for 17 damage (saved). Total damage dealt: 87.

How is the magic missiler "mostly keeping up" in damage?

Well because he can also have fireball. Still, there's plenty of situations where magic missile's fine, or even the best choice. Let's say that one Giant Grapples the greataxe-wielding barbarian, and the other two surround him. Or that instead of Hill Giants, they're Barded Devils, or Wraiths, or monks.

Area effects are a vital part of a mage's repertoire, and can't exactly be replaced. Really, the thing we're comparing Magic Missile against is other single target spells. The argument that says that Magic Missile is overpowered relies on the fact that for a mage with no special feats or anything, Magic Missile can keep up with the damage of basically all the other single-target attack spells, up to and including disentegrate, rendering them redundant.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Area effects are a vital part of a mage's repertoire, and can't exactly be replaced. Really, the thing we're comparing Magic Missile against is other single target spells. The argument that says that Magic Missile is overpowered relies on the fact that for a mage with no special feats or anything, Magic Missile can keep up with the damage of basically all the other single-target attack spells, up to and including disentegrate, rendering them redundant.

But it can't. Not even close when we look at averages. The only edge MM has is reliability, the average damage is just not impressive without piling on lots of feats.

If you are always tossing that Scorching Ray into melee and you have to suck up that -4 to hit mod, your average damage is going to substantially higher.

Even a Fire Giant is going to fail its Fort save ~1/3 of the time vs. Disintegrate. You are going to get an average in the ballpark of ~10d6 damage or better against a very suboptimal target.

 

[Benimoto]

But it can't. Not even close when we look at averages. The only edge MM has is reliability, the average damage is just not impressive without piling on lots of feats.

If you are always tossing that Scorching Ray into melee and you have to suck up that -4 to hit mod, your average damage is going to substantially higher.

Even a Fire Giant is going to fail its Fort save ~1/3 of the time vs. Disintegrate. You are going to get an average in the ballpark of ~10d6 damage or better against a very suboptimal target.

Okay, okay, maybe I was overstating my point a little.

To restate it, less emphatically: the reliability of magic missile makes it so that almost every other damage spell is only situationally better than magic missile.