D&D 5E (2014) Magic Missile vs. Mirror Image

[guachi]

He can when the thing he's using can't miss.

 

[Maxperson]

He can when the thing he's using can't miss.

Can't miss what? He's got the same targeting difficulties that the sword does. If he can get off his spell against the same impossible to track target as the fighter's swing WITHOUT having to roll to see if he mistakes the caster for an image, then the fighter should not have to roll to see if an image gets in the way, either. That's just sense.

The 5e Mirror Image isn't as well written as either Obamacare or Trumpcare. It forces me to re-write it in order for it to make sense.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Each missile is it's own attack (even though it doesn't need a roll). Each missile must therefore roll to see if it hits an image or the mage.

I have ruled that each missile rolls on its own, rather than one roll for all the missiles. (That's the only place I see room for debate.)
[/COLOR]

I think this is close. Since magic missile automatically hits, I think the wizard can specify which image to hit, and if it's a duplicate it's automatically destroyed.

So magic missile is an effective defense against mirror image and vice versa.

In other words, instead of random selection, allow the wizard to choose which of the duplicates to attack - they still won't know which is the actual wizard and which is a duplicate.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I think this is close. Since magic missile automatically hits, I think the wizard can specify which image to hit, and if it's a duplicate it's automatically destroyed.

So magic missile is an effective defense against mirror image and vice versa.

In other words, instead of random selection, allow the wizard to choose which of the duplicates to attack - they still won't know which is the actual wizard and which is a duplicate.

I haven't read the whole thread, so this might have been posted, but it does appear that Jeremy Crawford clarified this last year, and his answer is that magic missile ignores mirror image:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/15/magic-missile-vs-mirror-image/

The question then, is if the other characters watch the magic missile, do they know which of you to target?

 

[Darkness]

... isn't as well written as either Obamacare or Trumpcare. ...

Come on. No politics on these boards, you know this.

 

[Arial Black]

I get that the rules are nonsensical. That wasn't what I asked. Given the fact that 1) the rules say it's impossible for anyone(that includes casters) to track the caster of mirror image, and 2) it takes as long to target with a spell as it does a weapon, do you think it's rational for a spell caster who has the exact same limitations as the fighter, to be able to target perfectly something that's impossible to track when the fighter can't?

Okay then, rules to one side for the moment....conceptually, how do the creatures in our D&D worlds 'target' their weapon attacks and spells (that require a target)?

Do they have to aim at the creature like a sniper aims through a scope? Does the 'barrel' of the attack/spell have to be pointing at the body mass of the target, and if the aim is off then they fail to choose their target?

No!

All that is required is that they can see their target, and that the target is within range.

If an archer is facing a line of 20 guards, he can choose the 'target' just by wanting to. If he wants to 'target' the third guy on the left then he 100% 'targets' him. The 'target' part isn't a challenge; he's not going to mess up and accidentally 'target' the regimental goat!

Choosing the target is not a problem. Successfully shooting his arrow into his target is the uncertain part; he needs to make an attack roll. This is the part that is like looking down a scope of a sniper rifle. You can't aim anywhere and expect the target you freely chose to be hit by the arrow. Unless you have a Homing Arrow, of course.

If a caster, facing the same 20 guards, wants to cast hold person on the officer, then he must target the officer. Now, he might be wrong about who the officer is (there could be some disguise shenanigans going on) but if he targets 'that guy with all the gold braid shouting at the others' then the caster doesn't need to precisely aim anything at all. It doesn't matter if it's a different guy in disguise, it doesn't matter if he's protected by blur or disguise self or mirror image, that guy gets 'targeted' 100%. Whether he actually gets held is the part that is uncertain (save please!), not the 'choosing to target' him.

If the caster wants to cast magic missile at the officer, he does not have to precisely aim at the guy in order to 'target' that guy. Just like the archer or the caster of other spells like hold person, choosing to 'target' that guy is automatically 100% reliable. Just like the others, it doesn't matter if the guy is protected by blur/disguise self/mirror image, because choosing to target a creature never has any uncertainty. The uncertainty comes in if the attacker needs an attack roll or the target gets a save.

Magic missile just has to be 'targeted'; it does not have to be 'aimed'. To use a modern analogy, it's 'locked on' to it's target (automatically 100%), even if its target is 'the guy with the images'. It doesn't need to be aimed. Just choose the target and press the button and the missile will do the rest.

It all makes sense, and this 'automatic targeting' is completely consistent with the rest of the 5E rules-set.

Mirror image does not make it impossible to target the caster! The spell makes it impossible to tell which image is real, but the 'caster' is 'the guy made up of those 4 images'. If you don't need to precisely aim the spell if there is only 1 image to aim at then you don't have to precisely aim at the target if there are 4 or 400 images to aim at. 'Aiming' is not required!

 

[Arial Black]

The question then, is if the other characters watch the magic missile, do they know which of you to target?

No.

Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it’s impossible to track which image is real

The images are constantly swimming in and out of each other (including the real guy). Even if you hit the real guy, an instant later the images are all mixed up again so you don't know which image was hit.

If the attack that hit the real guy left a visible wound or something like a paint-ball paint splash, no problem! These duplicates are copies of you and if the way you look changes the images also change to match you. If you turn invisible, so do the duplicates. If you disguise yourself as the king, so do the duplicates. If you get an arm cut off, the duplicates lose their corresponding arms.

 

[schnee]

do you think it's rational for a spell caster who has the exact same limitations as the fighter, to be able to target perfectly something that's impossible to track when the fighter can't?

It doesn't have to be rational. IT IS MAGIC.

--

You want logic? OK, here is my logic. It's about game balance. The logic is: a well-balanced game is better and more fun than an absolutely logically consistent one.

The spells are roughly balanced to mean that a player gets a limited resource which they expend to get a benefit. A low level spell is good at one thing with a significant weakness.

Mirror Image? Has a good chance of stopping two attacks over 1 minute. Doesn't stop Magic Missile.
Shield? Strong defense against one melee attack. Stops Magic Missile cold.
Those spells are balanced against each other.
A mage either 'solves' for defending against a Mage with Magic Missile, or Melee. Not both. Not at that level.

That's it.

If you want D&D to be totally balanced, you might as well tell the makers of Monopoly that an iron can't own hotels.

 

[Cognomen's Cassowary]

You probably think you're being clever with that. Instead it's fairly pathetic, and something I'd expect from someone in grade school, rather than an adult here on the forum.

If you want me to answer you any further, you need to start responding with more maturity.

No, I didn't think it was clever. Do note that I spared you the gory details until after you implied, quite maturely, that your interpretation of the in-narrative functioning of the spell was not an interpretation at all and stated that you were only, quite maturely, explaining the spell as it is written to me.

Given that you were unable to identify them, I felt it necessary--not clever--to point out the five interpretive rationalizations you had made in that one paragraph. To whit:

1. That magic missile hits automatically because it does force damage,
2. That there is no narrative reason for the mechanical differences between magic missile and other spells which deal force damage, such as eldritch blast and disintegrate,
3. That magic missile has self-directing capabilities but only within narrow and arbitrary limits,
4. That the caster has to aim magic missile just as he or she would any other spell, but that he or she is simply much better at hitting with magic missile, and
5. That magic missile is unable to discern its target creature from cover, other creatures, and non-creatures, but it avoids everything except its target creature.

Those rationalizations haven't gone anywhere just because you have chosen to ignore them. What your response demonstrates is that you are so emotionally attached to either your narrative of magic missile's functioning or some perception of yourself as unerringly astute in your interpretations that you are able to read a fairly dispassionate assessment of their inconsistencies as falling outside the bounds of decorum.

That being the case, you need not feel obliged to answer me any further.

 

[Maxperson]

Okay then, rules to one side for the moment....conceptually, how do the creatures in our D&D worlds 'target' their weapon attacks and spells (that require a target)?

Do they have to aim at the creature like a sniper aims through a scope? Does the 'barrel' of the attack/spell have to be pointing at the body mass of the target, and if the aim is off then they fail to choose their target?

It doesn't matter. All that matters is that it takes the same targeting and same amount of time to attack, fire a bow, or cast a spell. If any one of those can hit the caster of the Mirror Image without having to roll the d20, they all should be able to do so. If one has to roll a d20, they all should have to do so.

Choosing the target is not a problem. Successfully shooting his arrow into his target is the uncertain part; he needs to make an attack roll. This is the part that is like looking down a scope of a sniper rifle. You can't aim anywhere and expect the target you freely chose to be hit by the arrow. Unless you have a Homing Arrow, of course.

The issue here is the targeting portion of the attack or spell, not the hitting portion.

If a caster, facing the same 20 guards, wants to cast hold person on the officer, then he must target the officer. Now, he might be wrong about who the officer is (there could be some disguise shenanigans going on) but if he targets 'that guy with all the gold braid shouting at the others' then the caster doesn't need to precisely aim anything at all. It doesn't matter if it's a different guy in disguise, it doesn't matter if he's protected by blur or disguise self or mirror image, that guy gets 'targeted' 100%. Whether he actually gets held is the part that is uncertain (save please!), not the 'choosing to target' him.

He does have to be able to know who the target is, though. If the target is impossible to track, then he doesn't know who the target is.

Magic missile just has to be 'targeted'; it does not have to be 'aimed'. To use a modern analogy, it's 'locked on' to it's target (automatically 100%), even if its target is 'the guy with the images'. It doesn't need to be aimed. Just choose the target and press the button and the missile will do the rest.

The issue with Mirror Image is that if you don't roll the d20, then you never really targeted the caster of the Mirror Image. You targeted the image instead. The wording of the spell is horrendous, though. It makes it seem like the sword swing is being re-directed when it is not. The sword swing at the caster doesn't suddenly veer left into an image. Rather, you thought the image was the caster.