Magic weapon/implement/etc. tax?

[Infiniti2000]

I apologize if this seems like a stupid question, but I'm having a little trouble with magic weapons, implements, and the like. It seems like some classes are essentially taxed with the requirements of 2 or sometimes 3 items instead of just one. For example, does a fighter ever need more than just a magic weapon? No. A druid, on the other hand, needs both a magic weapon and a magic totem. She could, however, choose to wield a staff and then get both weapon/implement in one fell swoop. My wife was adamant though that her druid would wield a spear, not a staff. A staff simply doesn't make sense in her character concept. This causes at least two problems I know about, obviously stemming from the root cause of requiring two magic items: a weapon and a totem. If she has only 1 (like a fighter would have), obviously it makes sense to have a magic totem, which will help a lot more. Soon, however, she'll simply stop carrying the useless spear. She becomes totally ineffectual with OA as well. A shaman at least has the ability to get a totemic spear, which seems like a "every shaman will get that without exception" item.

This is even worse for the bard who needs a magic weapon, instrument, and wand (implement). He could combine the implement and instrument with a subset of instruments, but that's much like the totemic spear, what bard will ever get the instruments that don't also function like a wand? Does the bard even bother carrying weapons anymore?

Please help me understand this. Maybe I'm missing something here or perhaps exaggerating a perceived issue. Please include other classes in the discussion (the ones in my group are monk, avenger, and barbarian). Note that this has been coming to light slowly as they progress and I'm trying to come up with magic items. I gave the druid a nice +2 custom spear and she's like, "How does that help with my powers which I use 90% of the time?"

I'm strongly considering making all custom weapons I make for these classes double as implements, and vice versa.

Thanks!

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, classes which uses both weapon and implement (say, most divine classes) or build options with two weapons (two-weapon ranger, barbarian, fighter, etc.) must buy 2+ weapon/implement.

Usually, that is not a big deal. Unlike 3.Xe, if you play a campaign or at least several adventures, you will end up having, say, some top-quality items (say, +2 items for a L6 PC) and a lot of sub-per items (say, +1 items for a L6 PC). This is because you can only sell magic items at only 1/5 of their value. Unlike 3.Xe, selling sub-per items to buy a superior item is not so easy.

On the other hand, when making a new higher-level PC and following the guideline in DMG, "Magic weapon/implement/etc. tax" may be a little bit of burden to a PC who needs more than two weapon/implement/etc.

But an adventure or two will soon fix that burden.

 

[Davachido]

Can't the druid carry around a spear (non-magical) and only upgrade the totem to use for her implement attacks? Also aren't all of the melee touch attacks that druids have implement anyway, stuff like grasping claws used as an AoO?

Anyway, as far as I know there are feats like focused expertise that grant +TH for both the weapon and implement attacks made from a magic item. I don't have PHB3 on me at the moment and compendium hasn't updated but I think there is a feat in there that does a similar thing to focused expertise.

As for bard, I would've thought you pick up the virtue you like the best and take powers that are akin to that style of fighting, since bard have weapon, implement and ranged attacks. So either bow, sword or wand not all 3 usually. (You can get around this with taking karmic shaper for a bow as an implement, or eladrin using longswords as wands.)

As for me, I just think handing out the standard +1/+2/+3 at 5/15/25 works, since stuff like weapon masters or anyone using multiple weapons/implements (assasins as well now that I think about it) really feel the feat/weapon tax if they are swapping between 2-4 weapons.

Edit: Sorry didn't see it was mostly the multiple weapons as opposed to the attack bonuses changed therein but most of my points still make some sense.

 

[Mengu]

I don't know if it's tax... As DM my job is to make sure the characters have their attack item slots filled. If the drow paladin/warlock wears a holy symbol, uses a sword in one hand, and a handcrossbow in the off hand that he can switch to a rod with quickdraw, I'll be sure to put magical versions of those items in the loot. A ranger might be using two bastard swords and a longbow. These items just make their way into the treasure parcels.

My next game, I might even just do away with the whole enchantment bonus part of the items, and go with the inherent bonus rule (though I would still use magic items for their properties and powers). A bit tired of upgrading every item slot on 6 PC's. I've started doing things like "the elven witch bestows the protection of the fey folk upon you as promised, and when you wake up, all your neck items go up from +1 to +2."

Of course I also house rule that everyone gets expertise at 5th level with every weapon and implement they can conceivably use. But that's a different issue.

 

[Obryn]

As for druids and spears, I believe there are at least one or two spears in AV2 that work as druid implements. It's been a while since I noticed them, though.

Fortunately, there are a pretty decent number of these weapons that also work as implements, for short-item-budget campaigns. Crusader's Weapons fill a similar role for divine casters.

But yeah, some classes - especially the divine ones, IMO - get hosed a bit because they need both a weapon and an implement. As a DM, you can lend a helping hand to make this as easy on the players as you'd like.

-O

 

[Spatula]

I apologize if this seems like a stupid question, but I'm having a little trouble with magic weapons, implements, and the like. It seems like some classes are essentially taxed with the requirements of 2 or sometimes 3 items instead of just one. For example, does a fighter ever need more than just a magic weapon? No.

A fighter (or any melee character) certainly benefits from also have a magic ranged weapon.

A druid, on the other hand, needs both a magic weapon and a magic totem.

Druids and other pure-implement users don't need magic weapons at all.

This is even worse for the bard who needs a magic weapon, instrument, and wand (implement).

A bard with all weapon attacks does not need a magic instrument or implement.

A bard with all implement attacks does not need a magic weapon, and only needs a magic wand or a magic instrument.

A bard with a mixture will probably want a songblade, or similar item, that functions as both. Or take the AIP feat.

Please help me understand this. Maybe I'm missing something here or perhaps exaggerating a perceived issue. Please include other classes in the discussion (the ones in my group are monk, avenger, and barbarian).

Monks can use either a ki focus as their implement, or a magic weapon. They don't need both.

Avengers with ranged attacks will need a magic holy symbol in addition to their weapon, or a weapon that can function as a holy symbol.

Barbarians will probably want a magic heavy thrown weapon in addition to their melee weapon.

Rangers, tempest fighters, and whirlwind barbarians need two magic melee weapons in addition to any ranged weapons. They're the ones who get screwed by the whole deal, although there's always the paired weapon property (splits into two) or double weapons.

 

[Spatula]

As for druids and spears, I believe there are at least one or two spears in AV2 that work as druid implements. It's been a while since I noticed them, though.

Alfsair spear, lvl 3/8/13/etc.

 

[DracoSuave]

Seriously, a Post-PHB3 discussion on Expertise, and people are bringing up Focused Expertise like it -exists-?!?

FAQ about Expertise feats:

Q) I want the expertise feat, which is good?

Versatile Expertise.

One Implement + One Weapon, all attacks, then go grab a beer.

Q) Fighter: But I want to switch between my big sword of doom, and that super axe of death!

Versatile Expertise. (Heavy Blade is an implement.)

Heavy Blade + Axe. All attacks. Then go grab a beer.

Q) Wizard/Invoker/Sorcerer: I have a staff of ruin, but I want to switch to an orb for orblocking/rod for stuff/dagger for stuff.

Versatile Expertise. (Staff is a weapon group.)

Orb/dagger/rod + Staff. All attacks. Then go grab a beer.

Q) Cleric/Paladin/Invoker: I have---

Versatile Expertise.

Holy Symbol + Your Weapon. All attacks. Then go grab a beer.

Q) I'm a monk.

Versatile Expertise.

Every weapon you're proficient in + um... something you're not. All attacks. Go grab a beer.


Seriously. Almost every question involving Expertise is answered by Versatile Expertise.

Is there anything that feat DOES NOT do?

 

[Mengu]

Is there anything that feat DOES NOT do?

Does it come with a bottle opener?

 

[Amaroq]

Right, guys, but the question is about magic items, not the expertise feats.

The answer is this:

For most characters, you'll want a primary weapon/implement, a neck-slot item, and an armor-slot item.

Some classes will want a secondary weapon/implement, true.

However, the other magic items that this competes with are extremely underpowered compared with the items in your primary/secondary set. Most have a fairly weak "property", plus one cool "daily" power or one fairly weak "encounter" power .. when we consider "weak" to be relative to, say, "+3 on all my attacks" for a Level 12 weapon/implement, or "+3 to all my NADs" for a Level 12 neck-slot item.

So, yes, they're likely to have one fewer random Wondrous Item, or possibly not have a Foot slot item or somesuch .. but I don't think, in practice, your characters should "feel" it very much.

Now, if the +2 spear was the first +2 item your shaman picked up, she might well have preferred a +2 implement, +2 armor, or +2 neck-item, and reasonably so ... but she'd have probably had the same reaction to any number of non-top-tier items she could have picked up:

Lens of Reading: Daily, allows one hour reading some language she doesn't understand.

Rushing Cleats: +2 to bull rushes, +1 distance on any push/slide for any close or melee attack

Lancing Gloves: +2 damage on melee attacks while mounted

Charm Bracelet: +1 to saving throws against ongoing damage

just to pick some random L7 and L8 items. Not that these aren't cool, aren't useful, etc., but .. compared to a +2 attack and +2 damage weapon/implement, or +2 to all my NAD's, they're clearly secondary in power.

If the OP wants to think of this as a "Magic Item Tax", they need to look at the opportunity cost the player is giving up to get one additional power item .. and to me it looks like its honestly no big deal.